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RollingSkull
07-07-2003, 11:07 AM
One of the main turnoffs I see in SvenCoop is that many of the maps are marred by awkward attempts at co-op "puzzles" and various other gimmicks. The elevator in Crisis is one of the big annoyances. The crate puzzle in Gmantowers is also quite annoying, as is the elevator shaft. Extension's constant jumping puzzles would be great if there was a quicksave feature. When you have to repeat them dozens of times due to constant death, they lose their appeal. Same with most of the remaining puzzles across all the SvenCoop maps. We're not here to make towers in this mod, we're here to run through maps and shoot stuff. Could we please cut down and the awkward forced co-op spots?

Now, I don't hate all of these instances where cooperation is required. For instance, the SvenCoop2 elevator is good fun. In fact, just about any of the co-op instances involving monsters work well because this mod is monster oriented, and I wish more maps would use this well rather than making us spin a wheel to move an elevator.

Freaking Neo
07-07-2003, 12:38 PM
First people want more puzzles, now they want less puzzles, wtf.
They are co-op elements, you need to work together to get past them (or atleast in most maps), thats why its called Svenco-op
You do have some valid points, that they tend to get a bit repeative, but you'll just have to live with that.

Field Medic
07-07-2003, 12:40 PM
If you think the crisis 2 elevator is annoying, you should have seen the earlier version of that map.

The game is designed for coop, and I will tell you it can be very fustrating on maps (IE assaultmesa) where you have to do complex jumps and such.

Remember that ALL of svencoop uses the skills you learned in single player half-life. For example, if you went through even the basic hazard course, you would be set for 90% of the encounters in sven. And if you've played the xen maps, it's not that bad to make any jump.

Knowing how the people on this forum think, you are going to get 'the point of this mod is to COOPerate to achieve goals. If you want just to fight monsters, play single player or a mod that lets you do that' sort of answer.

EvilPentaPenguin
07-07-2003, 02:28 PM
You are wrong. SvenCo-op is not about running and shooting, it's about working together....healing each other, making a human ladder to reach tall places, taking down a garg/monster with high hp together. Those puzzles are part of that.

RollingSkull
07-07-2003, 04:18 PM
Intelligent, often monster-based puzzles are good. Idiotic, turn the cranks together to open the door puzzles are not, especially when one is made to do those over and over again. I know the point of this mod is to co-operate, but in only a few maps is this co-op theme used effectively or creatively. Most maps just force you to make a human ladder at every building or to hit two switches at once to open the next door. These are not fun.

And the jumps are not that bad, the fact that to complete the map you have to do them over and over each time you die is the bad part. Extension desperately needs another spawn shortcut or two.

Sven Viking
08-07-2003, 12:03 AM
Heh, I've just been reading message board posts, mod reviews, etc. over the last week where people said the SvenCo-op mod would be good if only it had more sections where the players needed to co-operate, referring to some of the puzzles you mentioned as the only few good parts.

Can't please everyone... you seem to be in the minority, though. Still, you're in luck... apparently these puzzles are very, very rare. Just ask the guys mentioned above.


P.S. - Switches that you hit at the same time are not puzzles (except in a few rare cases), they're just ensuring that one player doesn't rush forward through the map and leave everyone behind.

"Boost" puzzles (where you have to stand on another player's head) that are actually necessary (not just to get an extra weapon or such) are very rare in official maps I can think of... I can only think of two at the moment.

See what you mean about having to go through jumping puzzles over and over again -- problem is, mappers often have to use the "if you die you have to walk through half the map again" thing as an incentive for players to stay alive. This isn't one of the mod's good points... fixed in SvenCo-op for HL2.

Sven Viking
08-07-2003, 12:10 AM
Sorry if that sounded harsh, just that we get people complaining in both directions. I get your point about puzzles involving monsters in some way... those ones are probably more fun... but the general puzzles are still good, and some of them serve a greater purpose (e.g. the crisis2 elevator means that the players need to split up, one group goes and opens the door for the others (who are in turn able to assist them by disabling the power. Real co-operative gameplay).

slippery
08-07-2003, 05:50 AM
lets see you try mapping something new and unique then hmmm?

the trouble is we need newblood mappers with fresh idea (not paying the old ones out you guys rock :D) its just we need some fresh ideas to keep the good gameplay up

*L*E*O*N*
08-07-2003, 12:46 PM
Make a thread for ideas. It will most likely have a lot of spam and repeats, but there will probably be something smart.

Nih
08-07-2003, 01:01 PM
Originally posted by *L*E*O*N*
Make a thread for ideas. It will most likely have a lot of spam and repeats, but there will probably be something smart.

http://www.svencoop.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=12275

KelpFarm2000
08-07-2003, 01:10 PM
That thread's been locked until the big 2.5 hits the servers. This way people won't make random comments or repeat thing that are already in 2.5. Kinda wierd, tho..

RollingSkull
09-07-2003, 01:32 PM
Sven, that did not sound harsh in the least. In fact, it is a bit nicer than I deserve.

The reviewers are idiots. Half-Life's enemies are great fun, and on maps like Wired and Osprey, giving large groups of people the chance to do some BIG battles with them is exactly how to exploit the Half-Life engine for more fun. Some of the early reviews of Half-Life pined for a way to fight the marines in a co-op setting. Half-Life combat is fun and Half-Life co-op combat is lots of fun.

The Svencoop maps are great examples of how the co-op puzzles and relevant instances should be done. With the exception of the twit players who don't read chat as I repeatedly shout "LURE THE BOSS MONSTERS TO THE STEAM/BLACK TILES YOU TWITS!" having exhausted every friendlier option, and the awkward turn the two valves to hit the security switches puzzle which could probably been done a little differently, I like the Svencoop maps.

As for the death punishment philosophy, the ONLY way to stay alive in SvenCoop is to play CS Half-Life, camp, crouch, strafe out from each corner and snipe with the magnum. The enemies have so much health so that one person cannot kill them. There HAS to be a balance between wanting to kill us and wanting us to stay alive. It has to be one or the other. Maps like Extension should not punish us for dying because there are pretty much NO health kits or armor batteries. You put us in unfavorable conditions, we die, and you punish us for dying! I don't play games like that. Goodness knows I get enough crap like that in real life.

Personally, I would not mind a more NOLF2-ish approach to the co-op. While the HL engine probably doesn't work like that, being able to revive other players would be sweet, especially if teh uber 0wnz0r guns were harder to come by.

PD-KC
09-07-2003, 02:06 PM
Originally posted by RollingSkull
You put us in unfavorable conditions, we die, and you punish us for dying!

Name one mod that doesn't do that. The thing is, if you die, something went wrong. Just try again and do it a bit differently this time.

Respawning for the sake of speed is another thing though. In Extension you get a major boost in speed if you die in several places to get more grenades quicker. If I see that there are plenty of assassins in the next room and all the other peeps are at the spawn, I don't sit around waiting for them to arrive and heal me, I spam the grenades, spam rockets, and rush at them with double-hitting wrench.

By the time I spawn, I quickly catch up to the rest of the team and we own the remainings of the squad. Enemies don't die unless you do something about it.

CS Half-Life? That gets you nowhere! It works, but it's so slow the timelimit of 3 hours go past by the time you kill first 5 marines and still have full HEV and HP... TFC techniques like running around turrets work wonders on enemies. Also you can line them up to make them shoot each other! Snipers are excellent in this. Sure it takes practise but... what doesn't. Also the HL AI is so weak against players, just get out of their line of sight and you're as good as gone for them. :)

Sven Viking
09-07-2003, 10:47 PM
Re: Death punishment philosophy: That was basically what I was saying (although PD-KC is right about "Name one mod that doesn't do that" :)... all games do it in general, but that's not the point). We sort of messed up there, by sticking too closely to the traditional co-op system (e.g. Doom2). Challenge should be provided through some other means than by making the players die over and over again. Fix coming in SC2.

Edit: The improved AI in HL2 will help with this too, yup. We could have done it in SC had we known, but not nearly as well as we'll be able to do it in HL2.

slippery
09-07-2003, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by Sven Viking
...Fix coming in SC2.


ooh sounds interesting, ne detailsd possibly? *gives sven the cute puppy dog look*

RollingSkull
10-07-2003, 07:03 AM
Everyone I see plays CS Sniper HL.

TFC doesn't "do that". I'm not saying that death punishment is the crime here, I'm saying that designing the game solely around killing the players and then death punishing is quite mean. Serious Sam Coop doesn't do that.

Sven Viking
10-07-2003, 07:26 AM
Yup, I'm agreeing with you. We should have thought of a better way to let mappers provide challenge. Coming in SC2.