View Full Version : Issues with large map support in Hammer/ZHLT/game

24-01-2016, 10:42 PM
I've never been much for multiplayer, personally, but a few years ago I learned of the sometimes bizarre, but always intimidatingly creative maps people have made for Sven Co-op, and I've been hooked since. All I ever do is wander the maps alone in a local server, but I still love it. Seeing what SC enables is more than a little inspiring, and the release of version 5.0 is something I had anticipated, so I installed it yesterday to toy around with the new features.

Unfortunately, I'm running into some issues with large map support, with regard to Hammer, the compile tools, and the game itself. I don't have any immediate plans to actually make a map of the scale I'm testing here, but I figured it's better to bring them up just in case. I've spent a while digging through the manual, SC forums and Steam discussions, but haven't seen these mentioned. My apologies if they've been covered before, or if I'm posting in the wrong place (I know there's this (http://forums.svencoop.com/showthread.php/42674-Hammer-Wishes-and-Discussion), but I take it that's more for feature requests than bug reports).

For reference, please see the attached test map. I built a section of geometry, and did a Copy/Paste Special to produce a hallway in the shape of a square wave, reaching almost to the positive X extent of the grid. It uses only textures from halflife.wad, and should demonstrate my points easily enough.

1.) Pan the top and side viewports to the right, and see that past ~100,000 units the bounding boxes of brushes and entities start getting wonky, with the inner edge seemingly clamped to 99,999 units.

2.) Select a section of hallway that's farther than 16,384 units from the origin, hit Shift+X to activate the Clipping tool, and try dragging out a clip plane. The cut preview is incorrect, and the result of hitting Enter at that point is the total removal of the selected object. Clips closer to the origin than 16,384 units work as expected.

3.) Try a compile of the map (CSG is enough to show this problem, no need to run BSP, VIS or RAD), and see that CSG throws an error during CreateBrush, "Warning: Illegal Brush (edge without opposite face): Entity X, Brush Y". As far as I can tell the problem starts at about 80,000 units. In the Visgroups panel, hide "Cap - far" and "Hall - far", then unhide "Cap - near" and try the compile again. It should complete with no warnings or errors.

4.) With "Cap - near" still visible, and "Cap - far" and "Hall - far" still hidden, recompile the map with both CSG and BSP. There should again be no warnings or errors. Load that successful compile in game, and use teleport 77312 -704 36 to jump to the farthest reaches of the hallway. Look back toward the origin and all geometry will be visible, but turn away from the origin and suddenly chunks start blacking out until you're standing in darkness. This doesn't seem to be helped by running VIS. Mind you, I'm not up to speed on the developers' design choices for version 5.0, so if large map support was only meant to provide a way of building background geometry that players aren't supposed to reach (akin to a Source-style 3D skybox), this point is moot.

Finally, two last points that aren't directly related to large maps:

5.) The Tools|Options 3D views draw distance slider only goes to 10,000, despite the changelog mentioning 40,000 as a new maximum: http://www.svencoop.com/manual/changelog.html#hammer Increasing the registry value manually with regedit doesn't seem to increase the limit in the Options dialog, even though lowering it with the same method successfully changes the value.

6.) Also on the topic of the registry, it seems the Sven Co-op SDK currently stores its configuration in the same place Valve's version of Hammer does, at HKEY_USERS\<user sid>\SOFTWARE\Valve\Valve Hammer Editor\. Anyone trying to use both the Sven Co-op SDK and the Half-Life SDK will have the programs' settings (including WAD lists) overwritten by one another. I don't know if this is by design, but it seemed worth mentioning.

I'm really sorry my first post on these boards is a bug report, I hate to start off by nitpicking, but I'd hate more to sit on what could be genuine bugs. They also might not be, and I'm just a giant idiot, so please feel free to correct anything I've said if I'm doing something stupid.

25-01-2016, 08:26 AM
Well no need to apologize, it's important for us that people who are using the SDK are telling us what's wrong with it. We haven't had much people who could thoroughly test it as most of us were testing actual game bugs.

So yeah it's good to get some feedback here ;)

Green Astronauts
27-01-2016, 03:53 AM
I've checked your map and noticed something else that's quite odd: Solids that are (partially) more than 18,000 units away from the origin are reported as invalid solids by the map problems dialog (Alt+P). If you create a new brush and then move it so that a vertex, an edge, a face or the entire brush is past the '18,000 unit border', it'll be listed as invalid. Move it closer to the origin and it's perfectly fine again. Also works the other way around: If you build a brush that's (at least partially) past 18,000 units, you get the "Invalid solid structure" error report but when you move it closer, it's fine.

Sadly I don't have any answers to your questions (I did notice all the wonkiness you described in points 1. through 4. and man, it's wonky) but I'd very much like to know too. I admire the attempt at raising the maximum distance map limit, but in how far is it actually useful? How much of it really works? If someone knows and can share this info, that's be great :)

27-01-2016, 04:58 AM
Hammer hasn't been fully updated to work with the new limits. The clip tool stops working at 16384 units (Source's limit, also 2 byte integer limit).

27-01-2016, 04:25 PM
I appreciate the info! As long as the problems I've run into are known and there are plans to investigate them at some point, I'm happy, I just didn't want to sit around assuming "somebody will get to that". Thanks for the help!

Green Astronauts
27-01-2016, 06:40 PM
Tens, this thread (http://forums.svencoop.com/showthread.php/42921-130-000x130-000-Map-Destroys-AI) might also interest you.