Thread: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

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  1. #51
    Sven Co-op animator, beta tester, halfway decent modeler WAR_Nuker's Avatar
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    yeah, pretty much. your idea is to rub against the grain and ephasize that more interesting maps should be made as opposed to mindless shooting. however, you cant expect people to be jerkin off to uni when they are mostly used to combat based maps. maybe a good idea would be a map that meets in the middle. a stimulating and unique style mixed with some combat. this might make it more appoachable to people that are used to shooting things nonstop, and perhaps ultimately make people appreciate maps like uni more. or maybe not who knows.

  2. #52
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    Quote Originally Posted by WAR_Nuker View Post
    yeah, pretty much. your idea is to rub against the grain and ephasize that more interesting maps should be made as opposed to mindless shooting. however, you cant expect people to be jerkin off to uni when they are mostly used to combat based maps. maybe a good idea would be a map that meets in the middle. a stimulating and unique style mixed with some combat. this might make it more appoachable to people that are used to shooting things nonstop, and perhaps ultimately make people appreciate maps like uni more. or maybe not who knows.
    haha you make it sound like a lot of thought goes into boms

  3. #53
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    what??? i dont get to shoot things???? in a video game????????? pfffffffft pbtttttt pbpbppbpt ftttffffttpppbbb

  4. #54
    Sven Co-op animator, beta tester, halfway decent modeler WAR_Nuker's Avatar
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    its more of an observation of how things tend to be in video game culture these days. particularly in fps games.

    i thought you wanted it in the boms. if its useless then dont sweat if a map like uni doesnt make it. like i said, i would take more value in a rating and review from scmapdb.

  5. #55
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    it'd be dope if it was boms'd since it'd be more recognized, yeah of course, but you make a good point since uni is sort of as popular as its ever gonna be already through word of mouth alone

    it just bums me out that boms has become so antiquated and a joke

  6. #56
    Sven Co-op animator, beta tester, halfway decent modeler WAR_Nuker's Avatar
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    or maybe im full of shit and it is boms worthy. ask the mods. im on the team yet i have no fuckin clue how a map is determined as boms worthy. it seems like it should be but no one has ever asked me lol.

  7. #57
    Mapper Nih's Avatar  
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    I'll admit I haven't had the time to test a lot of the new maps that have come out. Generally when I see something interesting in the showcase I try to gather some people for a game in irc, or play through the map in godmode to get an impression if necessary. If there's a map you think is boms worthy, feel free to bring attention to it and I'm sure a mod will check it out once they have time.

    It would be better if we had more showcase mods, but generally showcase mods have been members who are both active posters and experienced with mapping, and those are getting harder and harder to find each day.

    As for Uni, I played that and left a comment in the thread. It was an interesting map, but I don't think it fits the criteria of a boms map. First of all, for a map designed for a coop game, it certainly doesn't seem to have a lot of coop elements. It seems like it would fit better as singleplayer map. There's probably a bigger audience for it here, but since it's a showcase for coop maps, it should be judged as a coop map. And there's not really a whole lot of replay value to boot. You just walk around and explore, which is fun the first time, but since you can't really "explore" something twice, there's no point in playing it again. There are plenty of good looking, fun to explore maps that also have gameplay, so uni is in a pretty tough spot... Simply being avant-garde (lol) is not enough to get boms status.

    Also, I can't think of a single instance where a mod Bomsed his own map. I can think of an instance where a mod de-bomsed his map though.

  8. #58
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    Quote Originally Posted by Nih View Post
    First of all, for a map designed for a coop game, it certainly doesn't seem to have a lot of coop elements. It seems like it would fit better as singleplayer map. There's probably a bigger audience for it here, but since it's a showcase for coop maps, it should be judged as a coop map. And there's not really a whole lot of replay value to boot. You just walk around and explore, which is fun the first time, but since you can't really "explore" something twice, there's no point in playing it again. There are plenty of good looking, fun to explore maps that also have gameplay, so uni is in a pretty tough spot... Simply being avant-garde (lol) is not enough to get boms status.
    alright so it needs more 'press these 2 buttons at the same time' or 'boost me up into this vent' sequences for it to be qualified as 'gameplay', got it. as for replayability, there's loads of random triggers that make areas different on multiple playthroughs. it seems that old-timey mods here aren't willing to accept it because it doesn't hold a bunch of mapping cliches that other sven maps have and has become a staple to the mod, but again BOMS is incredibly out-dated so it's not surprising. respawning enemies aren't really fun in 2011 anymore. i'm not sweating over it though, uni already has a pretty huge audience and more atmosphere and creativity then most of the boms combined imo

  9. #59
    Administrator JPolito's Avatar  
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    Contrary to what Nih says, BOMS maps don't necessarily need to be great co-op maps. That's not what the rules state. Also from what you've said, I don't think you fully understand what BOMS status actually implies. The BOMS award is not outdated, and can not be outdated. The process of judging a map depends entirely on mapping expectations that exist at the time of judging.

    What you've stated about maps needing two-person buttons or other cliche co-op elements in order to be considered an enjoyable map is entirely false. In fact, if a map has a simple two-person button setup in this age it's likely that it will be completely ignored. To get anyones attention you're going to have to be innovative and invent some sort of map or entity system that hasn't been made a hundred times before. Replayability doesn't necessarily matter unless you're trying to get the map included in the mod.

    If that doesn't work, it's probably a failure on the mod team's part. Sometimes people post things and we don't notice them because we're all busy. It happens. Send someone a PM if we missed it, or get people to post replies to the showcase thread.

    As a result of the lack of attention being paid to the showcase, we're currently considering a few new moderators. This might help the situation out a bit. Sorry if you feel like Uni has been ignored. I can't say that I've actually played it before, but now I think I might have to take a look. I don't actually remember there being a thread for it.

    And I also completely agree that the SC Map DB is a much better place for a map to receive recognition. The fact that ratings are completely determined by the community instead of just a select few moderators makes it far superior to the BOMS system.

  10. #60
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    didn't really mean to start a huge debate or anything btw but yeah some guys were talking about boms so i threw in my 2 cents haha

    but the fact that uni can make people playing an online video game really paranoid, confused, uncomfortable and ultimately terrified is fucking amazing to me and i think its crazy that some people cant appreciate/understand that and try to break sven map creativity down into a 'process'

  11. #61
    Sven Co-op animator, beta tester, halfway decent modeler WAR_Nuker's Avatar
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    indeed. maybe that is all the criteria that is needed then. boms is a place for well made maps. uni is arguably one of them, and looking at it side by side with some of the other boms maps it certainly holds its own.

  12. #62
    Mapper Nih's Avatar  
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    The rules don't state that a map should be a great "coop map", but then again, the rules don't really state anything other than the map should have good gameplay and looks. It's pretty much implied by the fact that a map should have good gameplay. If a map doesn't make use of the fact that this is a coop game, that's a sign that the map is lacking something in the gameplay department. If a map would have been better suited as a singleplayer map, that's a sign of a huge failure to live up to the gameplay criteria.

    Cocyx: It's not a matter of having "mapping cliches". It's a matter of having solid gameplay and replay value. Maps are not rewarded for having cliches, they are punished.

    User ratings would probably be a better way of judging maps than the BOMS system. Unfortunately very few people use the ratings system on SCMapDb.

  13. #63
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    Quote Originally Posted by Nih View Post
    If a map would have been better suited as a singleplayer map, that's a sign of a huge failure to live up to the gameplay criteria.
    that isn't what 'gameplay' means, though. the map is designed with co-op in mind, being a huge maze-like complex to purposely separate players and give them each a different experience (and there is a point where you can boost on each others head to reach an item in one area, or you can take a harder, more obscure route). just because it isn't immediately apparent that its supposed to be co-op doesn't mean that it's forgotten, haha

    i'm not sure what the boms's target audience is but i was guessing it was server owners looking for cool maps to put on their servers, and uni is already pretty much on every server out there i've seen and generally praised among players, so if that's the case then boms is failing at what it's supposed to do


    as for user ratings, the threads can be rated in the showcase afaik but not enough people use it properly for it to have any meaning

  14. #64
    HURR DURR RetroFish's Avatar
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    Hey guys remember when maps/games were made because the creator wanted to make them, and not because of what people wanted to play?

    That was great.

  15. #65
    Someone Special cscarlet's Avatar  
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    Well until the mappers gets insulted when a map was released, no-one likes their work to be slated.

  16. #66
    Sven Co-op animator, beta tester, halfway decent modeler WAR_Nuker's Avatar
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    http://forums.svencoop.com/forumdisplay.php?f=63

    some old shit on the first page alone. crazy.

  17. #67
    Mapper Nih's Avatar  
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    Has a movie review failed if it gives a low rating to a movie that sets a new box office record? Depends on what the purpose of the review is. The way I see it, BOMS' purpose is to offer a judgment from a different perspective than the average player. When it comes to the quality of a map, I generally trust the judgment of the showcase mods more than the judgment of the server list. People are free to disagree with these judgments, we all have our own taste.

    I'd like to elaborate a little on Uni. I'm probably emphasizing the coop aspect too much, it's not really the main reason I don't think it's boms worthy. Is it really more cooperative to shoot things together than to explore things together? Probably not much.
    Nonetheless, SC maps have always been judged by their ability to encourage cooperative play. An ideal svencoop map should have the players working towards a common goal. In uni it seems like youre just running around exploring independently. I wouldn't rule out giving boms status to a map where the players opposed each other or worked independently, but the map would have to be exceptional in other areas. If uni had offered a unique style of gameplay, it could possibly have been bomsed. Unfortunately, running around exploring is not really a unique style of gameplay. I could do that in any map, and even shoot monsters while doing it, which, I gotta admit, is a bit more fun. And this is really the main reason I don't think it's boms worthy.

    It was an enjoyable map, and it's great that people are experimenting with different map concepts, but I don't think it belongs in boms.

  18. #68
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    Quote Originally Posted by Nih View Post
    If uni had offered a unique style of gameplay, it could possibly have been bomsed. Unfortunately, running around exploring is not really a unique style of gameplay. I could do that in any map, and even shoot monsters while doing it, which, I gotta admit, is a bit more fun. And this is really the main reason I don't think it's boms worthy.
    you seem to be ignoring the atmosphere and focusing too much on what you're actually trying to accomplish, comparing uni to any other map where you can 'shoot monsters while exploring' is pretty ridiculous and missing the point of the entire map, haha. uni doesn't treat itself like a task that needs to be completed, it's more about soaking in the environment and experiencing potential emotion-evoking events. uni rewards you for how much you put into it, the more you indulge the better experience you will have. of course, this is pretty nontraditional gameplay in the context of sven co-op but i think it should be praised for that instead of punished.

    i also recommend checking out streamfox's 'arcad' series, another BOMS-declined map that is really really good

    edit: also really good review of uni that i found - http://taw.duke4.net/2011/04/svencoop/uni/
    Last edited by Cocyx; 27-10-2011 at 11:01 AM.

  19. #69
    Sven Co-op animator, beta tester, halfway decent modeler WAR_Nuker's Avatar
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    looking at the boms, one thing that all those maps do have in common is none of them are "explore" maps. however, a lot of the maps on that list can be beaten by a single player - hellmouth for instance. i can beat the shit out of that map myself (granted i have infinte lives in the map so really anyone can). so, it cant be said that coop was always mandatory for it to make it to boms. "fun" and "replayable" was always the standard, i thought.

    it does seem odd that clearly players enjoy these kinds of maps from time to time yet arent considered for a boms status. i mean look how old the secretcity maps are, and people STILL play them. its wild. they arent inherently coop maps, no, but exploring does tend to be more interesting with other players...talking and such and showing eachother the weird shit they found.

    i feel like the nih criteria is best suited for official sven maps, not necessarily boms. i dont see explore maps being added officially to sven coop because it wouldnt make much sense...but boms? sure. its not like the boms list is gigantic anyway.

  20. #70
    Administrator JPolito's Avatar  
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    I'm starting to feel like the old rule that "'secret' maps shouldn't be BOMS maps" is kind of outdated now. The title should be given to any map that is well-built, fun and innovative.

  21. #71
    Sven Co-op animator, beta tester, halfway decent modeler WAR_Nuker's Avatar
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    *and the thread slowly dies*

    move along. nothing to see here.

  22. #72
    Registered User Aurora's Avatar
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    I have been trying to start a map for a full year and achieved nothing. No inspiration. I put in a block and try to think of a layout, but nothing comes. My imagination has devolved...
    Quote Originally Posted by RetroFish View Post
    Hey guys remember when maps/games were made because the creator wanted to make them, and not because of what people wanted to play?

    That was great.

  23. #73
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    Quote Originally Posted by WAR_Nuker View Post
    *and the thread slowly dies*

    move along. nothing to see here.
    lol

  24. #74
    a person RNG's Avatar  
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora View Post
    I have been trying to start a map for a full year and achieved nothing.
    well lol, starting a map is easy for me but finishing one like hardest fucking thing ever

  25. #75
    Administrator JPolito's Avatar  
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    Re: The evolution of Sven Co-op maps

    Quote Originally Posted by RNG View Post
    well lol, starting a map is easy for me but finishing one like hardest fucking thing ever
    Truer words were never spoken.

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