Thread: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

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  1. #26
    Registered User G37's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    What the hell, i can't wait for Sven Co-op 5.0..
    ..

  2. #27
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Quote Originally Posted by G37 View Post
    What the hell, i can't wait for Sven Co-op 5.0..
    It's not a matter if you can't or not. You must, bro.
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  3. #28
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Greetings, SC community.
    I remember quitting Sven Co-op completely when 4.0 came out, but now I am excited to Hopefully play Sven Co-op again, in the form of 5.0 on Steam. I've been an active Steam user for over 10 years too, and still am.

    The reason why I'm posting here is because I want to tell you what exactly pushed me away from Sven Co-op around December 2008 when the 4.0b came out, and/or to ask for some clarification on what the 5.0 is going to be like.


    What pushed me away from the Sven Co-op was exactly the "ruined" original atmosphere of Half-life in 4.0b: the Beretta, the Deagle, the Combat Knife, the MP5 with its grenade launcher taken away, the fancy M40A1 rifle, etc., they all terrified me because they stood out from the original Half-life atmosphere.

    On the other hand, the dual Uzis and the Microgun scavenged from the Heavy Weapons Grunts sometimes, I appreciated them a lot because they didn't stand out from the original atmosphere at all! Even though I hadn't seen them outside of Sven Co-op.


    So, the "new" weapons were definitely the main thing which managed to weird me out of the game. Too much "new" for me I suppose. Saying this probably gets me branded as a "whiner" or a "hater of new things", but in contrast, and in my defense, all the new creatures (and weapons) from prior to 4.0b, such as the Gonome, Baby Garg., Pit Drones, Robot Grunts, Shock Troopers etc., I loved 'em all.

    Now of course I can see that the 4.0 (and beyond) brought a bunch of cool new gameplay tweaks, such as the enemies being able to shoot while running, but sadly I never got to truly experience that little feature since.. you know, I quit.

    This probably came out longer than I expected, BUT! Based on what I wrote in this post, my experience, thoughts and preferences about Sven Co-op, I only have one question: am I going to like Sven Co-op 5.0?

  4. #29
    func_vehicle enthusiaist w00tguy123's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    ^ Probably not since we'll still have all those weapon changes. If anything, the experience will feel even less like Half-Life.

    In the future, it might be possible to revert some of those changes with scripting, but that would only occur on specific maps or servers.
    Love,
    w00tguy

  5. #30
    Mapper Nih's Avatar  
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Design wise, Sven Co-op is no longer intended to be "Half-Life with more players", but rather its own game with its own style. I understand that many people played Sven for the nostalgic feel, but perhaps you will be able to enjoy the game on its own if you just leave that mindset

  6. #31
    Craazy! the-middleman's Avatar  
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Some of the guns have new models/sounds an a slightly different firemode. But it is still 90% like Half-Life. Whats the deal? Why does this bother so many people? Where the old models THAT good that any change to them is a degradation of the game?
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  7. #32
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Quote Originally Posted by Nih View Post
    Design wise, Sven Co-op is no longer intended to be "Half-Life with more players", but rather its own game with its own style. I understand that many people played Sven for the nostalgic feel, but perhaps you will be able to enjoy the game on its own if you just leave that mindset
    ^That, Sven maps are always been more varied, flexible in theme nature, walk-thoughs, puzzle maps, black-mesa, zombie/fright maps, etc. etc.
    The "SC MOD" is about providing "the Tools" and allowing "Mappers" to make their own themes and ideas a reality. Mappers like to "be creative" and hence create new stuff, (so the Devs have historically responded and tried to provide new features, content etc.) but ultimately you will be able to reduce (and eventually eliminate/revert this new content as per w00tguy123) should you wish, either as a mapper or server operator. (The choice is not the Dev-Teams but rather the communities. For example the "server plug-in XP", is not part of Sven-Coop nor Officially Supported. )

    Having said that I would suggest that you try out Sven-Coop's offering of "half-life single player" (HLSP map series) converted to "co-op play", as for SC 5.0, we have attempted to make it closer to the original HL experience (by introducing a new game play mode) as well as reducing the required number of map loads by merging some maps in our "larger grid".
    Last edited by wolf-3d; 18-04-2015 at 03:05 PM. Reason: grammer
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  8. #33
    Mapper, Novice Modder Merz's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Quote Originally Posted by the-middleman View Post
    Some of the guns have new models/sounds an a slightly different firemode. But it is still 90% like Half-Life. Whats the deal? Why does this bother so many people? Where the old models THAT good that any change to them is a degradation of the game?
    To be brutally honest, its not really that the old models were that great or even a purity type of thing. The new weapon assets just seem incredibly out of place in Goldsource and give a pretty intense feeling of dissonance to at least everyone I know that's played it. Extremely high def models in a world built from brush primitives and 128x128 textures, it just clashes in such a way that it really rubs a lot of people the wrong way including myself.

    If you had hypothetically, somehow dropped in assets from other mods of Goldsource's era like Firearms, The Specialists, etc it would have probably felt less forced.

    It all feels a bit like those way overly detailed, kind of cheesy weapon packs on Gamebanana for Counter Strike 1.6 for example.

    Its not really something super grounded in logic, more like something more based in subjective feeling. I honestly try to ignore this dissonance but I'm always forced to download the LD pack or use old half life models to get rid of the bad taste in my mouth so to speak.

    I feel like Cry of Fear has a similar problem that comes from trying to make Goldsource use models that don't match up with its blocky brush primitive aesthetic it inherited from Quake.


    Me personally, I don't really like the sounds either. I don't have a good explanation for that other than I don't personally like them. Maybe its part of that dissonance or maybe its just my own tastes. The pistol though, mesh, animation, sound, I dislike entirely. That's just me and no insult meant to the creators, maybe I would feel differently about it in a different context.
    Last edited by Merz; 19-04-2015 at 01:52 AM.

  9. #34
    func_vehicle enthusiaist w00tguy123's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    ^ This explains my feelings as well - all of it.

    The creators did a great job of making detailed/realistic/tacticool weapons, but I don't think they don't belong in this engine. I also personally dislike some of the sounds and models for unknown reasons (might just be nostalgia since I don't like the "HD models" in HL either).
    Love,
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  10. #35
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Rather surprised to hear all this. I read all of your responses that came after me. I am still definitely going to at least check the SC 5.0 out no matter what, and try to lure some friends in. They probably wouldn't even be concerned about the "intrusively new" weapons, sounds and the over-detailing standing out in some places, seeing as not everyone has as much appreciation for the og. Half-life.


    Now, what's so surprising to me is that in the March 22nd 2015 blog post, the creator man JPolito said: "The new conversion will be much closer to the original Half-Life experience, with fewer Sven Co-op specific additions that ruined the original atmosphere of Half-Life.", which made me go wild as you can imagine..

    Yet, I find you people here saying with probably some high reliability that for example: "Not, since we'll still have all those weapon changes. If anything, the experience will feel even less like Half-Life.", "Design wise, Sven Co-op is no longer intended to be 'Half-Life with more players', but rather its own game with its own style." and "But it is still 90% like Half-Life. Were the old models THAT good that any change to them is a degradation of the game?"


    I guess there could have been the option of making the old models just slightly shinier or more "HD" without altering them much. Or creating the new weapons (such as Deagle, M16, M40A1 etc.) while keeping the goal of making them fit inside the old Half-life world especially in mind. As poster Merz also explained, it really feels like they are "dragged and dropped" from Gamebanana to Half-life, roughly speaking.

    But, as wolf-3d clarified, it will be ultimately under the mapper's and/or the server operator's discretion as to what SC 5.0 is going to be like?
    Also mind you that the HLSP campaign done in Sven Co-op is not all that I'm longing or aching for, lol. Even Toonrun which is such a weird world I want run through it again, with as many old HL weapons, old sound worlds and functionality as possible. Even if you're not playing the HLSP campaign, Sven Co-op always felt like Half-life with a twist, in the form of bunch of cool Co-op maps mostly.

    Again, a post as long and torturing as hell, but still I'm excited to see the SC 5.0, while also really hoping that the new conversion will be able to hit me in the right spot, or somewhere close. Or I may just assume the role of an old-school Half-life preacher who everyone on the server is annoyed by how he keeps talking about the "good old days."
    Last edited by Techno Grub; 19-04-2015 at 03:57 AM.

  11. #36
    Banned Solokiller's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    It is possible to implement the original HL weapons by using Angelscript. It isn't perfect, due to a lack of client side prediction and other things, but you can use the weapon exactly as it was before.

  12. #37
    Banned CryoKeen's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    You could just add the option back to the installer for people want low def models..

  13. #38
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Hell, it's gonna be fine.. I hope. Although if there's one weapon I'd rather have, it's the blocky Glock-thing instead of the Beretta.
    And the SPAS shotgun doesn't have the double shot secondary-fire, but automatic fire instead?

    Also, reloading single grenades into the underbarrel launcher is very cool feature, but why didn't the creators do this with the MP5?

  14. #39
    func_vehicle enthusiaist w00tguy123's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    You can get the old shotgun functionality back with weaponmode_shotgun. Only specific maps do that though.

    I think implementing the "HD models" checkbox from Half-Life would be a great way to solve this. It reverts the weapon models and sounds back to how they were in the original game. An installer option would also be good.
    Love,
    w00tguy

  15. #40
    Administrator Sniper's Avatar  
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Quote Originally Posted by Techno Grub View Post
    Hell, it's gonna be fine.. I hope. Although if there's one weapon I'd rather have, it's the blocky Glock-thing instead of the Beretta.
    And the SPAS shotgun doesn't have the double shot secondary-fire, but automatic fire instead?

    Also, reloading single grenades into the underbarrel launcher is very cool feature, but why didn't the creators do this with the MP5?
    These were decisions made many years ago. At that time, there was more focus on realistic operation of weapons. Also, we wanted to refresh some of the gameplay options. We thought some of these changes were acceptable because it provided what Gearbox was unable to do with just the HD pack. E.g. the hd pack has an M4 Carbine Assault rifle. As you may find out, the M4 fires 5.56mm ammo (not the mp5's 9mm ammo) - but no one complained there :P

    Half-life 2's shotgun is a Spas-12, so we felt it'd be acceptable to change the weapon. The spas-12 has a pump and semi-automatic fire mode. In our case, the secondary fire mode for the shotgun is similar to the glock/beretta in that it becomes the rapid fire option with a loss of accuracy but more damage per second.

  16. #41
    Administrator Sniper's Avatar  
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Also I must state that we are still within the Half-Life universe. We always try to be within the realm of reason when we expand on Half-Life ideas.

    Fun fact:
    People don't like the change regarding the m16a2, but Valve originally planned it:


    Hrm... is that an mp5? Nope!

  17. #42
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    I do really appreciate the HWGRUNT, despite the alien grunts running at you like you have crack-cocainium. The HWgrunt is a nice addition to the game and having him drop his weapon so players can use it is a really nice feature, thx for dat

    Maybe MrFriendly could make an appearance as a monster in 5.0? Just don't include that rumored rape-the-player attack :3
    Last edited by CryoKeen; 19-04-2015 at 12:51 PM.

  18. #43
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Quote Originally Posted by Solokiller View Post
    It is possible to implement the original HL weapons by using Angelscript. It isn't perfect, due to a lack of client side prediction and other things, but you can use the weapon exactly as it was before.
    We really need a subforum for these kind of topics involving angel script, specially now that i want to ask if i can reduce the mag capacity on a gun.

    Back to topic that techno grub was talking, goldsrc is a fun engine to mod, and getting out of the "vanilla HL" formulae is the exact thing that a dev would preffer.
    Last edited by Gaucho; 19-04-2015 at 01:31 PM. Reason: I became pro-pinecest

  19. #44
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    yes, angel script forum please!

  20. #45
    Mapper, Novice Modder Merz's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    For what I described, I really think just having an official option in the installer or in the game itself to switch to the LD pack provided in the model releases would be more than enough to get rid of that dissonance feeling. At least for most people I knew who had that problem.

    The LD pack is really well put together and when I tried it, I instantly felt that bad taste in my mouth go away. Now I use it almost exclusively.

  21. #46
    Someone Special cscarlet's Avatar  
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    The LD pack should be made into paid DLC, because free game!

  22. #47
    Administrator AdamR's Avatar  
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    It's very illogical to include a low-def pack with the game. It's like saying "our game looks nicer, but you can choose to make it look like crap". No objections to a community member maintaining one though. When workshop comes it would sit nicely in there.
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  23. #48
    Mapper, Novice Modder Merz's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamR View Post
    It's very illogical to include a low-def pack with the game. It's like saying "our game looks nicer, but you can choose to make it look like crap". No objections to a community member maintaining one though. When workshop comes it would sit nicely in there.
    Its not really illogical at all, in fact I would consider it good design when its apparently a common complaint. The game definitely does -not- neccesarily look nicer with the 4.0 models. It would have been different if the models were more along the lines of the improvements made by Condition Zero to CS 1.6's but the 4.0 models are such a departure from the general aesthetic of Goldsource that it definitely isn't the case here. The context for their existence is also a mod where most maps don't even use detail textures, let alone the library of detailed custom props something like CZ had.

    My brutally honest opinion, the 4.0 models make your game look like crap not the other way around. Its a jarring disconnection from the scenery that takes away whatever charm the old primitive brush architecture of Goldsource and actually draws attention to the flaws of the maps(and the mod in general) rather than creating a seamless level of detail.

    Imagine somehow sticking the models of the HD pack created by Gearbox into Quake and its roughly the same level of inappropriateness. It's really, very illogical to not have the option available. Maybe it could even be considered bad public relations to not have it.

  24. #49
    Donated 15NS$ for Sven's Holiday at the Bahamas Puchi's Avatar  
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Quote Originally Posted by Merz View Post
    It's really, very illogical to not have the option available. Maybe it could even be considered bad public relations to not have it.
    Actually it's logically to NOT have it in. Why? Someone has to maintain them. With this, we have to maintain twice the amount of models.
    Piece of cake? Okay, then learn how to model, animate, texture and join our team.
    By the way: We already had issues regarding models, a lot of features in the past didnt make it in the releases because we had noone to make and/or update the models for it.
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  25. #50
    Mapper, Novice Modder Merz's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    In no way did I imply that it was a piece of cake to maintain models. If that's how you interpreted it then I apologize.

    The LD pack is already created, if you believe that maintaining the 4.0 models is a better choice than maintaining the LD models then I can't stop you especially as I don't know what individual struggles your team has.

    This is just feedback and a reply to Adam's post claiming the LD pack would somehow make the game inferior. Specifically the words
    Quote Originally Posted by AdamR View Post
    It's very illogical to include a low-def pack with the game. It's like saying "our game looks nicer, but you can choose to make it look like crap".
    Last edited by Merz; 20-04-2015 at 04:53 PM.

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