Thread: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

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  1. #76
    Banned CryoKeen's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    I just wanna say, even though we do disagree on a lot of things, I'm glad that we can all love svencoop and it's amazing ability for customization, thanks /b/rother's

  2. #77
    Administrator AdamR's Avatar  
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    The thing is you all sound like we're not letting you use LD content. We've not put a stop to any form of customization. You're all still free to use any content you like, and have way more customization than ever before. It's puzzling to find any reason why one could justifiably whine about us not making the game look worse.
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  3. #78
    Registered User Snark567's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamR View Post
    The thing is you all sound like we're not letting you use LD content. We've not put a stop to any form of customization. You're all still free to use any content you like, and have way more customization than ever before. It's puzzling to find any reason why one could justifiably whine about us not making the game look worse.
    I can understand why you don't want them added when you talk about maintaining and I understand that we are free to add them ourselves. But when you say that more polygons and sharper textures is "better" I just want to Zblam (Blackmail my turtle by using a banana and an episode of kitchen nightmares).


    First: A good art style with bad graphics can still look better than good graphics with bad art direction. A game like Windwaker looks good even today thanks to the art style. It's simple and pleasant to look at. That doesn't mean that the graphics are great. And there are games that are more recent and with better graphics but look visually unappealing tanks to the art direction.
    Now I'm not saying the old LD models are timeless. Quite the opposite but they fit much better with the visual direction of the game. All the new HD models do is clash with the old and new visual themes of the game.
    It's really jarring to see muddy textures on the walls and ground and furniture but then you look at your weapon and it's trying to be all HD with sharp textures but fails midway and just looks weird and out of place.

    Second: Models that aim for higher quality and realism age faster and end up looking really bad. Just think of old games back when their graphics were considered good and people said they look "visually" great. Now they look crappy. A more stylized game doesn't rely on good graphics to look good. Windwaker still looks cool even though the graphics are not so hot.


    And last: When talking about "better looking" in terms of visuals then all of it is completely subjective. So this reply was kind of shmoppy. Anyways I can see why you added the hd models. You yourself like them if you didn't they wouldn't be in the game. That doesn't make them "better" looking for everyone though.

    In the end all I'm saying is that just because your models have more polygons and sharper textures doesn't mean they are "better". There is no real need to change them as you must have already spend a large amount of time making them, plus if the community really wants different looking weapons I'm sure they will make them themselves. So yes I prefer visually appealing or fitting with the style models than complex looking models for the sake of looking complex.
    Last edited by Snark567; 24-04-2015 at 07:37 AM.

  4. #79
    func_vehicle enthusiaist w00tguy123's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    I figured the point of this discussion was to make the devs aware that a lot of players prefer the old models (to an extent that they'll stop playing because of how the new stuff feels). If you want these players to like the game, then it makes sense to reach a compromise. I don't think newer players will go searching for an LD pack they don't know exists.
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  5. #80
    Banned CryoKeen's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    This was my point to, most players will not take the extra step to add back the old models unless it is easy/obvious.

    If you even put a link on the main page when you release 5.0 to the LD models that would be really really nice

    However I get the feeling that most of you developers have put your foot down and really don't want to give players that option easily unfortunately.

  6. #81
    Still learning wolf-3d's Avatar  
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Am I missing something, don't you just overwrite the existing HD models with the Low Def ones ?

    Please understand, there are various reasons that we don't want to do this. e.g. It will increase the "size of the installation package", we will have to maintain and fix "broken models", there are "several versions" of LD model packs available, potential copywrite issues, etc and we want to progress the MOD forward not backwards.

    The personal preferences of people are always different, we understand that and argue ourselves internally about what looks best, causes performance hits etc. but at the end of the day we need "one set" of models to test, develop and showcase to new players. The powers that be have decided on a model set but have in no way taken away the ability to change to "Other/LD" model packs. (You have the choice.)

    If it is such a important issue, write a tutorial on how to install the various "alternative model packs", post links to them etc. and we can add "various unofficial models and model packs are available to download from forums" to the manual.

    [Link] spy-warriors site has a list to get you started: [Link]
    Last edited by wolf-3d; 24-04-2015 at 07:50 PM.
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  7. #82
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Congratulations! I still remember the good old days back in early 2000, playing this and doing level design for it as well. Heres to another 15 years!
    Oh noes!1!!

  8. #83
    Registered User Aurora's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamR View Post
    making the game look worse.
    I disagree. Obviously mismatched graphics qualities between different visual aspects makes a game look crappy. Low end graphics with a congruent art style and quality merely makes a game look dated.



    This is bad art direction.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamR View Post
    You're all still free to use any content you like, and have way more customization than ever before.
    Unfortunately, I can foresee this and the other replies in this thread being the standard response to just about every complaint in regards to the gameplay, visuals, and user development in the future following Sven Co-op 5.0's release. Although weapon view models are nothing crucial, this way of thinking foreshadows other, more major criticisms as well, as far as I've witnessed on the forum.

    < 'Yo, I've been playing SC for a week and thought I'd raise a few criticisms. Feels like the enemy AI behavior is imbalanced because... and the removal of the MP5 w/ GL removes an aspect of the fast paced gameplay I liked in HL because... and I feel the art style is incongruent in the included content because... and some of the standard maps have bad gameplay because...'

    > 'absolute nonsense, our vision is fine; after all we've played this amongst the same dev team for a decade. we would know what works better than some strangers whining on the forum about our free game'
    > 'we don't get paid a penny for this lol, we're doing this in our free time lol, we can't do any of the stuff you ask because then we'd never release lol, feel free to join the team and help us lol'
    > 'why not do it yourself lol, make your own maps and models, or use le angelscript to fix gameplay yourself lol'


    Here's a newsflash - nobody gives a shit. If you make bad game development decisions, your game will be bad. Except, maybe, to the small circle of people people who have treated it as their eternal, personal pet project for longer than what, a decade? People will just leave, stop playing the game, and cease to make any custom content for it - no matter how much of your precious, free, unpaid time you've spent on developing it. Nobody else is going to fix your game for you, regardless of how customisable you've made it. You have to do that yourself.

  9. #84
    Proud Member of the Young Leninist Komsomol! tyrlop's Avatar
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    Post Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    The old models are far better for Sven Co-op, this includes the sounds (that are to loud in my opinion)
    I say this as an expert, so please listen to me, I understand everyone's feelings, it's difficult to make the right decision, that's why we need everyone’s opinion, to be sure that its the best solution for everyone.
    Here is my suggestion: What about adding the new models as a external dl? Keeping the old ones with the installer?

  10. #85
    Administrator JPolito's Avatar  
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Or, instead of moving backwards, we can just keep doing what we always do and let someone else make an LD pack?

  11. #86
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Quote Originally Posted by JPolito View Post
    Or, instead of moving backwards, we can just keep doing what we always do and let someone else make an LD pack?
    Good idea. I'd like to help too. How about outsourcing everything? I can take all the blame when all your nonsensical decisions finally backfire, so you wouldn't have to make up anymore excuses.

    This is going to end up like this: 'Sven has only bad reviews? Oh well, we gave out everything what we could to the community, but they just didn't bother to help us and fix the problems we've created. It's all their fault. Such ungrateful people.'

  12. #87
    Administrator AdamR's Avatar  
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora View Post
    I disagree. Obviously mismatched graphics qualities between different visual aspects makes a game look crappy. Low end graphics with a congruent art style and quality merely makes a game look dated.

    This is bad art direction.
    The beauty (or crudeness) of art depends on the person looking at it. We're never going to please everyone with our stock content, so there is little reason to try and tailor it for every differing opinion here. We'll just stick to the stock content we like and let anyone change it to their preference. We've done this since ever.
    Adam "Adambean" Reece
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  13. #88
    Registered User Aurora's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamR View Post
    The beauty (or crudeness) of art depends on the person looking at it.
    Really. So in your opinion, since the above illustration of graphics incongruency could be subjectively judged as beautiful by somebody, therefore that makes it alright on any account of objectivity or common sense? I suppose therein lies the answer why I find it difficult to appreciate the art of Jackson Pollock, for instance.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamR View Post
    We're never going to please everyone with our stock content, so there is little reason to try and tailor it for every differing opinion here. We'll just stick to the stock content we like and let anyone change it to their preference. We've done this since ever.
    It's interesting how you're speaking as if there were lots of different people, with a variety of completely different visual preferences, each of whom wanted you to cater to their own preferences - when in truth there are lots of people here who have come together to converge on one stance, the same stance, which is opposed to and outnumbers yours.

  14. #89
    func_vehicle enthusiaist w00tguy123's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Quote Originally Posted by tyrlop View Post
    What about adding the new models as a external dl? Keeping the old ones with the installer?
    Then we would be happy but the devs wouldn't. I was hoping we could at least meet each other half-way with a toggle button in the game/installer (or even just a mention in the news post).

    Personally, I also want to see more drastic change, like what Aurora is pushing for. LD models really are just baby steps towards tackling bigger problems.

    Quote Originally Posted by JPolito View Post
    Or, instead of moving backwards, we can just keep doing what we always do and let someone else make an LD pack?
    Then we've accomplished nothing here.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamR View Post
    We're never going to please everyone with our stock content, so there is little reason to try and tailor it for every differing opinion here. We'll just stick to the stock content we like and let anyone change it to their preference.
    But you actually are tailoring it for an opinion, which is your own. Stock content should be everything from the original Half-Life, since we know everyone likes Half-Life or else they wouldn't play this mod. If you go the route of letting players customize the game to fit their vision, then everything should start as vanilla as possible.
    Love,
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  15. #90
    Registered User Erty's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    The weapon view models may be out of place, I can definitely see that, but I think that the main concern here is to make sure the game and its features are finished and as bug-free as possible. I think any sort of official LD model pack or other non-stock content would just unnecessarily delay that. Once it has been released onto Steam though it should be much easier to replace weapon view models or any other content, whether it's through the Workshop, or even through patches if the devs would decide to spend resources on that

  16. #91
    Donated 15NS$ for Sven's Holiday at the Bahamas Puchi's Avatar  
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora View Post
    Really. So in your opinion, since the above illustration of graphics incongruency could be subjectively judged as beautiful by somebody, therefore that makes it alright on any account of objectivity or common sense? I suppose therein lies the answer why I find it difficult to appreciate the art of Jackson Pollock, for instance.
    Quote Originally Posted by w00tguy123 View Post
    Personally, I also want to see more drastic change, like what Aurora is pushing for. LD models really are just baby steps towards tackling bigger problems.
    actually, this whole discussion is all about "LD or HD models" and "HD models look ugly because the game is old".

    So instead of using LD models, the next logic step could be the textures. We already have high-quality ones with the nightwatch pack.
    Do it with passion, or not at all.
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  17. #92
    Registered User Aurora's Avatar
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Quote Originally Posted by Erty View Post
    The weapon view models may be out of place, I can definitely see that, but I think that the main concern here is to make sure the game and its features are finished and as bug-free as possible. I think any sort of official LD model pack or other non-stock content would just unnecessarily delay that. Once it has been released onto Steam though it should be much easier to replace weapon view models or any other content, whether it's through the Workshop, or even through patches if the devs would decide to spend resources on that
    Quote Originally Posted by Puchi View Post
    actually, this whole discussion is all about "LD or HD models" and "HD models look ugly because the game is old".
    I think everybody can agree that bug-fixing and functional gameplay take priority over visuals. However, the point of this conversation extends beyond LD view-models; it's about taking user opinion on board at all, and carrying out such game development decisions that could be judged as good on some reasonable scale of objectivity, which isn't only just the opinion inside the small development team, but should include the player base of the game.

  18. #93
    Administrator JPolito's Avatar  
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    If you get a petition with a significant amount of signatures, it's something we can certainly consider. But if we only have five or six people on a message board telling us that 'everyone' would rather it be a certain way, there's not much credibility to anyone's argument.

  19. #94
    Administrator AdamR's Avatar  
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora View Post
    It's interesting how you're speaking as if there were lots of different people, with a variety of completely different visual preferences, each of whom wanted you to cater to their own preferences - when in truth there are lots of people here who have come together to converge on one stance, the same stance, which is opposed to and outnumbers yours.
    Yeah, you can't possibly claim either side outweighs another. You can't read the mind of every Sven Co-op player so don't even try to make such assumptions. I didn't even decide which models make it into the game, but I can safely say I like them.

    Quote Originally Posted by w00tguy123 View Post
    But you actually are tailoring it for an opinion, which is your own. Stock content should be everything from the original Half-Life, since we know everyone likes Half-Life or else they wouldn't play this mod. If you go the route of letting players customize the game to fit their vision, then everything should start as vanilla as possible.
    The developers make the game how it is because it is their game. We will of course take on board opinions, but this is still someone's project. We're not just going to make any change anyone who comes along wants or nobody would like any of it. At some point the foot needs to go down.

    The camel is a horse designed by a committee.
    Exactly this. The project needs to have a vision from leadership.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aurora View Post
    I think everybody can agree that bug-fixing and functional gameplay take priority over visuals. However, the point of this conversation extends beyond LD view-models; it's about taking user opinion on board at all, and carrying out such game development decisions that could be judged as good on some reasonable scale of objectivity, which isn't only just the opinion inside the small development team, but should include the player base of the game.
    You make it sound like we don't listen to a word anyone says. Ever.
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  20. #95
    Administrator AdamR's Avatar  
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    Re: 15 Years of Sven Co-op

    Quote Originally Posted by JPolito View Post
    If you get a petition with a significant amount of signatures, it's something we can certainly consider. But if we only have five or six people on a message board telling us that 'everyone' would rather it be a certain way, there's not much credibility to anyone's argument.
    This.

    There is no point in any of us trying to reason with anyone else anyway.

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    if all people could be reasoned with we wouldn't have wars.
    I concur. If this weren't an Internet message board someone would have been punched right in the face by now.
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