Thread: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

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  1. #26
    Mapper Nih's Avatar  
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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    Is there any way for a func_train to block light like a normal brush (at its start position)?

  2. #27
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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    I believe zhlt_lightflags may be what you're looking for.

  3. #28
    Italian Level Designer & Prop Modeller Alberto309's Avatar
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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    Does anyone knows if it's possible for a light_shadow entity that targets a func_door_rotating with "Opaque" lightflags to turn ON and OFF the light without doing it instantly? I would like to have a neat effect of the light, gradually increasing and decreasing it, as it comes from the other side of the door when the door takes its time to open and close.

    Sorry for my english.

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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    I assume you want something like a dynamic door shadow, that isn't possible in the HL engine.

    With a very complicated styles lights setup, you could probably make the lighting in the entire area around the door fade on and off, but I don't recommend it. Styles lights use crazy amounts of light data and destroy performance on AMD/Intel video cards.

  5. #30
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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGaBiTe View Post
    I assume you want something like a dynamic door shadow
    Well, not "that" dynamic. I know the Goldsrc engine limits, of course. :P
    Let's just say I would like a gentle pulse from black effect, and then it just stops as soon as it reaches the light color and brightness set in the object properties (with perfect timing with the door when it opens); and the opposite effect when the door closes. I don't want it to perfectly follow the door's projecting shadow in real time like on the 2012 Source engine version.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGaBiTe View Post
    With a very complicated styles lights setup, you could probably make the lighting in the entire area around the door fade on and off, but I don't recommend it. Styles lights use crazy amounts of light data and destroy performance on AMD/Intel video cards.
    That's what I want, indeed.
    Do you think I would have performance issues with a Radeon HD 5870 1GB? Or are you referring to older video cards such as AGP ones? This is just a test after all. I just would like to know if it's possible and if someone could tell me ho to do it.
    And, well, we all know that Intel video cards are the worst choice for gaming of any kind. :P

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  6. #31
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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    Quote Originally Posted by Alberto309 View Post
    Well, not "that" dynamic. I know the Goldsrc engine limits, of course. :P
    Let's just say I would like a gentle pulse from black effect, and then it just stops as soon as it reaches the light color and brightness set in the object properties (with perfect timing with the door when it opens)
    With some precise timing with a styles light, you could probably get close to that effect. Though you have to worry about people blocking the door and breaking the effect. Since doors reverse when blocked (even if you have the damage set to 9999), you can end up with a broken state of the door being closed with the light on. To get around this, you'd have to do a more complicated setup with a func_train so it wouldn't reverse. func_trains have their own set of issues though, I just don't think it's worth messing with.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alberto309 View Post
    That's what I want, indeed.
    Do you think I would have performance issues with a Radeon HD 5870 1GB? Or are you referring to older video cards such as AGP ones? This is just a test after all. I just would like to know if it's possible and if someone could tell me ho to do it.
    And, well, we all know that Intel video cards are the worst choice for gaming of any kind. :P
    ALL ATI/AMD cards have the issue, age/generation doesn't matter. I have these AMD/ATI cards:

    - R9 280x
    - R7 270
    - R7 240
    - HD5870
    - HD5450
    - HD4650
    - HD3450
    - HD2400
    - X1800
    - X1300
    - X800 GTO2
    - Radeon 9800 Pro
    - Radeon 9600
    - Radeon 9550
    - Radeon 9200

    I can confirm every single one of these cards has performance issues in the HL engine with styles lights. Intel GPUs are show stoppers though. I've tested styles lights on several Intel GPUs and the game will just lock up while the styles light is switching.

    The problem stems from the HL engine using the ancient rendering method of blasting frame data to the GPU in immediate mode. ATI/AMD GPUs don't handle this well, especially when styles lights or detail textures are being used. If you do r_speeds 1 and developer 2 in the console, you can see the huge variation in frame rendering times caused by styles lights, which causes something like microstuttering but worse.

    Here are some example maps that cause bad frame rates due to styles lights:
    central_bunker (the cave underground)
    fail-mountain (the cave in the mountain and the lava tunnel)
    adams_puzzles (the pool room at the end of the map)
    adams_dungeon (the lava areas with fading lights and color maze)
    intruder (outside area with the lab due to flickering lights)

  7. #32
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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGaBiTe View Post
    With some precise timing with a styles light, you could probably get close to that effect.
    Hmm... Though my doors aren't going back if blocked. Maybe because I'm mapping for the Afraid of Monsters: Director's Cut engine (Xash3D)?
    But thanks, I will look into it.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGaBiTe View Post
    I can confirm every single one of these cards has performance issues in the HL engine with styles lights.
    I knew that ATi/AMD video cards are less performant than some Nvidia ones. But, is it normal that when I turn my flashlight on in a map with 0.50 average texture scaling (or less, like 0.30) I have HUGE fps drops? I mean, like from 200-250 to 25-45 fps. And I've also noticed that if I keep pointing at more and more surfaces in the time the flashlight is turned on, my fps keeps decreasing, then once I turn it off they go back up to 300. Is that an ATi/AMD issue too?

    Anyway, just to inform you: I've just bought a Gainward GTX 560 Ti 1024MB "Golden Sample" on EBay. I should receive it in a couple of days. What would be the advantages I could have on Goldsource engine based games compared to my HD 5870 (the new video card has OpenGL 4.x if that matters)?

    Sorry for all the questions but you seem acknowledged regarding the Goldsrc engine. :3

    Gamer since 1995

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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    Quote Originally Posted by Alberto309 View Post
    Hmm... Though my doors aren't going back if blocked. Maybe because I'm mapping for the Afraid of Monsters: Director's Cut engine (Xash3D)?
    But thanks, I will look into it.
    I haven't done much with the Xash3D engine so I don't know much about it. Since it does use the Quake / HL engine as a base, all of the rendering issues are going to carry over unless the devs rewrite the rendering engine.



    Quote Originally Posted by Alberto309 View Post
    I knew that ATi/AMD video cards are less performant than some Nvidia ones. But, is it normal that when I turn my flashlight on in a map with 0.50 average texture scaling (or less, like 0.30) I have HUGE fps drops? I mean, like from 200-250 to 25-45 fps. And I've also noticed that if I keep pointing at more and more surfaces in the time the flashlight is turned on, my fps keeps decreasing, then once I turn it off they go back up to 300. Is that an ATi/AMD issue too?
    Flashlights are dynamic lights too, they'll cause the same issues as styles lights will. More faces covered by the flashlight will obviously cause progressively worse frame rates since the engine has to render it on more surfaces.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alberto309 View Post
    Anyway, just to inform you: I've just bought a Gainward GTX 560 Ti 1024MB "Golden Sample" on EBay. I should receive it in a couple of days. What would be the advantages I could have on Goldsource engine based games compared to my HD 5870 (the new video card has OpenGL 4.x if that matters)?

    Sorry for all the questions but you seem acknowledged regarding the Goldsrc engine. :3
    The Nvidia card you're buying will likely work much better in the HL engine with all of the effects that you're using. But if you plan on releasing the map you're working on publicly, you need to take into consideration that not everyone has an Nvidia video card and won't buy one just to play your map. You need to make your map as compatible as possible to span all three common video chips on the market (AMD/Nvidia/Intel) even if that means not using styles lights and detail textures.

    You can of course release the map with all of the styles lights and detail textures you want, it's just that far fewer people will play the map because nobody can run it.

  9. #34
    Italian Level Designer & Prop Modeller Alberto309's Avatar
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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGaBiTe View Post
    I haven't done much with the Xash3D engine so I don't know much about it. Since it does use the Quake / HL engine as a base, all of the rendering issues are going to carry over unless the devs rewrite the rendering engine.
    Agreed. I just use it because it has a better rendering when you point the flashlight on a model (env_model, which is like cycler_sprite with more options).

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGaBiTe View Post
    Flashlights are dynamic lights too, they'll cause the same issues as styles lights will. More faces covered by the flashlight will obviously cause progressively worse frame rates since the engine has to render it on more surfaces.
    Yeah, I should've thought about that. Thanks for the info.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGaBiTe View Post
    The Nvidia card you're buying will likely work much better in the HL engine with all of the effects that you're using. But if you plan on releasing the map you're working on publicly, you need to take into consideration that not everyone has an Nvidia video card and won't buy one just to play your map. You need to make your map as compatible as possible to span all three common video chips on the market (AMD/Nvidia/Intel) even if that means not using styles lights and detail textures.
    Well, that's a great news for me; but yeah I'm aware that if I want to release such map it must be compatible with most of the computers out there. I'll see what I can do. I will maybe find a good coder.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGaBiTe View Post
    You can of course release the map with all of the styles lights and detail textures you want, it's just that far fewer people will play the map because nobody can run it.
    The map, which is part of a singleplayer mod, is still at early Alpha stages, so there won't be a release anytime soon as I want it to be performant for everyone.

    Thanks a lot for all the info, GiGaBiTe. I appreciated a lot.

    Gamer since 1995

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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    If the mod is going to be single player only, you can do something like compile two sets of the maps, one for Nvidia cards and the other for AMD, Intel, etc. with styles lights disabled.

    All you'd have to do then is have an option in the menu to switch between map sets.

  11. #36
    Italian Level Designer & Prop Modeller Alberto309's Avatar
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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGaBiTe View Post
    If the mod is going to be single player only, you can do something like compile two sets of the maps, one for Nvidia cards and the other for AMD, Intel, etc. with styles lights disabled.

    All you'd have to do then is have an option in the menu to switch between map sets.
    Good idea, but I think I will port everything to the Arrangement engine as the developers increased the overall performance, running much more smoother than vanilla Goldsource. And it's also much better in terms of graphics. I only hope that all the VHLT features will run ok on that engine.

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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    I remember that mod from like 2005. If I remember correctly it was a fork of SOHL 1.4 with a very broken bolted on physics engine and lots of stolen Spanish HL2 content. Most of the included test maps were so badly made that they were unplayable. Lots of them were huge maps that had a large skybox surrounding them and no visibility so w_poly was like 10k+ at any given time.

    The ModDB video looks like they finally got their act together and made something out of it. Hopefully they also fixed the codebase because it was ~scary~.

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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGaBiTe View Post
    I remember that mod from like 2005. If I remember correctly it was a fork of SOHL 1.4 with a very broken bolted on physics engine and lots of stolen Spanish HL2 content. Most of the included test maps were so badly made that they were unplayable. Lots of them were huge maps that had a large skybox surrounding them and no visibility so w_poly was like 10k+ at any given time.

    The ModDB video looks like they finally got their act together and made something out of it. Hopefully they also fixed the codebase because it was ~scary~.
    Indeed. They specifically stated this: "Having an improved, and cleaner compilation, plus new methods of rendering, helped the world to perform almost 300% faster. This will help us to create more detailed and complex scenarios".
    And that's basically the reason I would like to use Arrangement engine instead. I'm a details-whore lol.

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  14. #39
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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    ... helped the world to perform almost 300% faster.
    Is this ~ 300% faster than HL1 or the 2005 version of Arrangement engine ?
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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    Quote Originally Posted by wolf-3d View Post
    Is this ~ 300% faster than HL1 or the 2005 version of Arrangement engine ?
    300% faster than the 2005 arrange mod would be like running HL2 on a 386.

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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGaBiTe View Post
    300% faster than the 2005 arrange mod would be like running HL2 on a 386.
    Well. Seems more like a generic statement to me, rather than a precise investigation of the performance improvement. :P
    300% could also means that they implemented some sort of multicore rendering, more amount of RAM to use and Direct3D implemetation. As vanilla Goldsource doesn't have none of them (Direct3D support has been removed in the SteamPipe update if I recall correctly). That would mean a lot in terms of performance improvement.
    But if you really want to know it, I know SysOp (the Arrangement project lead) personally, so I could ask him what does he means with "300% faster". And I could also ask if the engine supports the latest VHLT release as a whole.

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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    Multicore rendering would require the engine itself to be SMP aware and it isn't. The best case scenario is they rewrote the OpenGL renderer so it doesn't use immediate mode rendering anymore.

    And I'm not sure why anyone would want the Direct3D renderer other than for cheating. DirectX doesn't support non power of two textures without hacky workarounds and Half-Life is full of such textures. Whenever the renderer encountered such textures, they were smeared or compressed so they looked really ugly. It also lacked fog support so you could see in any depth of water, which was loved by CS players back in the day on water maps. There were also some issues with the Z buffer so far away world brush entities like windows and some one way walls would become partially unrendered so you could see clearly through them.

    You can still use the old Direct3D renderer if you copy it from a pre-steampipe version of Half-Life, though it causes really bad rendering issues in Sven-Coop. The software renderer is even worse.

  18. #43
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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    Sven Co-op also has OpenGL only rendering code in it, so there will be missing graphics if you use anything else.

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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    how to fix "fake shadows"?
    zhlt.7z map & demo file ZHLT 2.5.3 custom build 1.7
    vhlt.7z map & demo file VHLT v34

    compile pr
    hlcsg.exe -wadconfig my "%mapname%"
    hlbsp.exe "%mapname%"
    hlvis.exe -full "%mapname%"
    hlrad.exe -extra -dscale 1 -bounce 2 -chop 32 "%mapname%"
    Attached Files Attached Files

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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    You're going to have to be more descriptive as to what problem you're having. Both of your test maps are just a room with a box.

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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaqtincha View Post
    how to fix "fake shadows"?
    ...
    Go to this Sven co-op Manor page, then scroll down to the "Tutorial section on Shadows"
    link: https://sites.google.com/site/svenma.../advancedlight

    Edit: You probably need to read the sections on "ZHLT Lightflags" and "zhlt_customshadow".
    Last edited by wolf-3d; 04-01-2016 at 07:32 AM.
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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    Quote Originally Posted by Vaqtincha View Post
    how to fix "fake shadows"?
    All the shadows are fine. If you mean by this you don't want shadows at all, you'll need to set light_environment's Pitch Yaw Roll to 90 0 0 so it will shine directly from top.

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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    Run my test map. you see 1st person view and 3nd person view. (bug shadow weapon model)
    sorry my bad English
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  24. #49
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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    That's how the engine handles view model lighting: it's not as advanced as modern game engines, it uses the brightness level of the point directly underneath the player, not the brightness level on any given pixel.

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    Re: Vluzacn's ZHLT v34 Update

    however, the test map compiled with zhlt v2.5.3 custom build 1.7(see zhlt.7z) without bug.

    UPD. Another map
    scr
    Last edited by Vaqtincha; 14-01-2016 at 07:18 PM.

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