Thread: Distant objects not rendering

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  1. #1
    func_vehicle enthusiaist w00tguy123's Avatar
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    Distant objects not rendering

    The dynamic skybox in zombie nights and in my own test map are no longer visible (noticed this some months ago, not sure if it's reported yet). The max view distance for maps seems to be limited to a lower value now.
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    w00tguy

  2. #2
    Administrator AdamR's Avatar  
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    Re: Distant objects not rendering

    It's limited to 16000. If it's any higher the sky map will start to not render.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamR View Post
    Clamped CVAR sv_zmax (and subsequently gl_zmax) to 4096-16000 to prevent rendering artefacts (with the sky) and performance issues at greater distances.
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  3. #3
    func_vehicle enthusiaist w00tguy123's Avatar
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    Re: Distant objects not rendering

    Oh, I guess I missed that. I'm surprised to see this was intentional I'll still to try change your mind even though this is the internet:

    1) There isn't a good way to add dynamic skies or day/night cycles anymore. The technique we use is to completely replace the sky by setting it to black and adding a giant model/func_rotating/etc. that fades into differently textured ones. It looks great and there are no glitches.

    Counter-argument:
    Use func_portal.

    Counter-counter-argument:
    The open-area size would still be restrained to less than 16000 units in any direction. I also doubt this method would render as fast as a single box/sphere model.

    2) Large outdoor vistas (16000+ units) no longer possible. We see the sky clipping our view and a black abyss where the terrain used to be.

    3) Performance issues should be handled by the mapper with VIS blockers (as was done in zombie nights) if they choose to set the view distance higher than 16000.

    Please reconsider!
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    w00tguy

  4. #4
    REE3 The303's Avatar  
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    Re: Distant objects not rendering

    Is this why in my last play of Daikon Warfare, I saw wierd empty holes in the sky and especially during the driving sequences?

  5. #5
    func_vehicle enthusiaist w00tguy123's Avatar
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    Re: Distant objects not rendering

    If you're talking about this:

    sf4R5z4.jpg

    then that's just a dark part of the level that isn't properly VIS blocked or something.
    Love,
    w00tguy

  6. #6
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    Re: Distant objects not rendering

    That map has several fake scrolling roads using huge func_trains. When an entity gets to a certain size and is able to move around the map, the engine basically gives up trying to calculate visibility on it and always renders it, no matter where you are in the map.

    A better method would have to been to use a func_conveyor with some custom scrolling textures, it would cut way down on the network I/O and be less prone to bugs, like the individual sections of func_train getting jammed and desyncing.

  7. #7
    Administrator AdamR's Avatar  
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    Re: Distant objects not rendering

    Quote Originally Posted by w00tguy123 View Post
    Oh, I guess I missed that. I'm surprised to see this was intentional I'll still to try change your mind even though this is the internet:
    It wasn't entirely intentional to lower the maximum rendering distance, it's just something we had to do to fix a different problem. If a fix to the sky texture rendering black after this distance can be found then we'd put the maximum rendering distance back up to 32767 as it was before. All that rendering math nerd shit is way beyond my programming skill set though.

    No amount of cool vis techniques will help performance in large outdoor areas though. The polygon count just gets way too high, particularly with HD models. Simple BSP brushes aren't a huge deal as we've seen with desert circle, but add a bunch of players and NPCs and you'll soon see the frame rate tumble.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGaBiTe View Post
    That map has several fake scrolling roads using huge func_trains. When an entity gets to a certain size and is able to move around the map, the engine basically gives up trying to calculate visibility on it and always renders it, no matter where you are in the map.

    A better method would have to been to use a func_conveyor with some custom scrolling textures, it would cut way down on the network I/O and be less prone to bugs, like the individual sections of func_train getting jammed and desyncing.
    Haha yeah that's something I did on that rubbish sc_waterworks map I did 10 years ago. Seemed cool at the time but on shit servers it desynced and pushed players outside the truck for no reason.
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  8. #8
    func_vehicle enthusiaist w00tguy123's Avatar
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    Re: Distant objects not rendering

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamR View Post
    It wasn't entirely intentional to lower the maximum rendering distance, it's just something we had to do to fix a different problem. If a fix to the sky texture rendering black after this distance can be found then we'd put the maximum rendering distance back up to 32767 as it was before. All that rendering math nerd shit is way beyond my programming skill set though.
    The sky being black is actually desired in some cases. When replacing the skybox with a model-based one we need to set the sky to black or else the effect doesn't work.

    Without seeing the code I'd guess the skybox needs to be rendered further away from the "camera". When the far clipping plane is pushed out to absurd distances, the near plane also needs to pushed out or else you lose precision in the depth buffer (you'd get that Z-fighting issue with things that are 10+ units apart instead of 0.1). Maybe the near plane is so far out that the sky is getting clipped.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamR View Post
    No amount of cool vis techniques will help performance in large outdoor areas though. The polygon count just gets way too high, particularly with HD models. Simple BSP brushes aren't a huge deal as we've seen with desert circle, but add a bunch of players and NPCs and you'll soon see the frame rate tumble.
    Right, the engine wasn't designed for large outdoor areas, but I think it's still possible to make one without killing performance. In a map I'm making I'm using tall mountains + hint brushes to keep the wpoly sane in every area. In my case there won't be many monsters either.
    Love,
    w00tguy

  9. #9
    Advanced Leveldesigner SourceSkyBoxer's Avatar
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    Re: Distant objects not rendering

    Oh shit 16000 units is very low please please change to 131072! I feel sad if my big map looks ugly with f***ing hole. I hope 5.13 will grow up....
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  10. #10
    Administrator AdamR's Avatar  
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    Re: Distant objects not rendering

    Quote Originally Posted by SourceSkyBoxer View Post
    Oh shit 16000 units is very low please please change to 131072! I feel sad if my big map looks ugly with f***ing hole. I hope 5.13 will grow up....
    Enjoy your 4 frames/second.
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  11. #11
    func_vehicle enthusiaist w00tguy123's Avatar
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    Re: Distant objects not rendering

    Every frame would be so dense that we would need a slideshow to fully appreciate them.

    Come on, 5.13, just grow up already.
    Love,
    w00tguy

  12. #12
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    Re: Distant objects not rendering

    Quote Originally Posted by SourceSkyBoxer View Post
    Oh shit 16000 units is very low please please change to 131072! I feel sad if my big map looks ugly with f***ing hole. I hope 5.13 will grow up....
    Figure out a more efficient way to render a BSP tree on a 20 year old engine and you can have your increased rendering distance. Even the Source engine has problems rendering huge outdoor areas, which is why creative tricks are used to make the PVS as small as possible while appearing to still be a large outdoor area.

    LordHavoc seems to have solved the problem with the Darkplaces engine, which is a heavily extended Quake engine and is able to render some pretty big and complex levels.

  13. #13
    Advanced Leveldesigner SourceSkyBoxer's Avatar
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    Re: Distant objects not rendering

    And has here bugs / issues: If brush from info_target loads to func_portal and can not throw lights and emmision-volumelights from portal - If bug appends to here. See explanation of problem picture #1 and #2.

    And if it happens from hidden big room loads into func_portal ( just I draw 1k, 1k, 1k units zoom /8 = 128 units. )

    If you draw example an architecture of brushwork or more part of models than it loads into func_portal and looks real small brushes. Hahaha that is why Half-Life Engine doesn't know about smallest brushes. But flashlight and light can not throw with func_portal. And please fix with func_portal If you see portal like other portal from portal is dead and lights does not throw from portal like my post.
    Hello guys, Svencoop. I am sorry Please respect me! I am deaf. Thanks, Sven-Coop Forum!

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  14. #14
    snarks snarks snarks snarks snarks snarks snarks snarks Green Astronauts's Avatar
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    Re: Distant objects not rendering

    Yes.
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    Administrator at the ModRiotGaming servers

  15. #15
    func_vehicle enthusiaist w00tguy123's Avatar
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    Re: Distant objects not rendering

    Just making this post more visible:

    Quote Originally Posted by [aL`H]solokiller`og
    https://forums.svencoop.com/showthre...-not-rendering
    https://forums.svencoop.com/showthre...certain-angles

    R_DrawSkyBox checks the dot product between a sky face and the current view angles, if it's smaller than -0.29289322 it ignores the face. That's an angle of about 107 degrees, and seems to match up with the issue occurring with higher FOV settings. The face is essentially behind the player, so the engine ignores it during rendering.

    I obviously can't test this but i'd suggest experimenting with FOV 110 or such and changing the value to match a higher angle, or disabling the check (neither Quake, Quake 2 nor Quake 3 have this check).

    I doubt this fixes rendering issues past a certain distance from origin, but it should at least let you increase Z max back up to what it was.
    Love,
    w00tguy

  16. #16
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    Re: Distant objects not rendering

    Hello. I am working on an animation. I'm having this problem with the "distance" at which Blender renders my scene. I've got some scenery which "disappears" in the distance. Maybe it would help if I posted a picture of the problem I'm experiencing.


    Here's a 3D view.
    http://www.knoxfarms.com/albums/albu...help.sized.jpg


    ... And here's what it looks like when I render it.
    http://www.knoxfarms.com/albums/albu...ysiunhelp2.jpg

  17. #17
    func_vehicle enthusiaist w00tguy123's Avatar
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    Re: Distant objects not rendering

    Maybe there could be a map setting to switch back to the old behavior?
    Love,
    w00tguy

  18. #18
    func_vehicle enthusiaist w00tguy123's Avatar
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    Re: Distant objects not rendering

    Source of Life is also affected by this - specifically source_of_life_3_a. You can see a small sliver of what the sky is meant to be (rotating models).
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Love,
    w00tguy

  19. #19
    Registered banana Gaucho's Avatar
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    Re: Distant objects not rendering

    Come on, 5.13, just grow up already.

    Quote Originally Posted by bakerleo View Post
    Hello. I am working on an animation. I'm having this problem with the "distance" at which Blender renders my scene. I've got some scenery which "disappears" in the distance. Maybe it would help if I posted a picture of the problem I'm experiencing.


    Here's a 3D view.
    http://www.knoxfarms.com/albums/albu...help.sized.jpg


    ... And here's what it looks like when I render it.
    http://www.knoxfarms.com/albums/albu...ysiunhelp2.jpg
    off-topic but here its your answer
    There is a seperate camera clipStart/End settings too as in the viewports, just select the camera and go to camera settings>Lens.
    Hey there.

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