Thread: [Tutorial] On textures and wpoly (128, 256 or 240, which is the best?)

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  1. #26
    Still learning wolf-3d's Avatar  
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    Re: [Tutorial] On textures and wpoly (128, 256 or 240, which is the best?)

    On a different page of that same website, I found the (possibly outdated) info that BSP makes a default viscut every 1024 units:
    Pretty sure the last large grid test I did showed it is still the case. (The height or z-axis of 8192 causes major problems as the engine tends to see over everything in a large open area, unless vis-blocked.)

    From: http://www.slackiller.com/tommy14/rspeeds.htm
    "BSP initially divides your map into 1024x1024x8192 sections."
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    Re: [Tutorial] On textures and wpoly (128, 256 or 240, which is the best?)

    Quote Originally Posted by wolf-3d View Post
    Pretty sure the last large grid test I did showed it is still the case. (The height or z-axis of 8192 causes major problems as the engine tends to see over everything in a large open area, unless vis-blocked.)

    From: http://www.slackiller.com/tommy14/rspeeds.htm
    "BSP initially divides your map into 1024x1024x8192 sections."
    I wasn't able to see the effects of it when I tested it with gl_wireframe. Judging from old articles those cuts should show up brownish but I never saw those. Could you show me some examples?

  3. #28
    Donated 15NS$ for Sven's Holiday at the Bahamas Puchi's Avatar  
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    Re: [Tutorial] On textures and wpoly (128, 256 or 240, which is the best?)

    Let's get back to the compiler settings: Since SC does not have Software Renderer anymore, I would say we can make "subdivide 256" a default.
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  4. #29
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    Re: [Tutorial] On textures and wpoly (128, 256 or 240, which is the best?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Puchi View Post
    Let's get back to the compiler settings: Since SC does not have Software Renderer anymore, I would say we can make "subdivide 256" a default.
    Software mode was only one problem prohibiting 256 subdivision. RAD will mostly still crash when you're trying it or give you glitches in game.

    From the Natural Selection forums:

    The problem with RAD is because of the way Half-Life handles lightmaps. The maximum size of a lightmap is 16x16 (this is a hardcoded limit in the engine). The engine calculates the size to use for each face using that face's size ('extents') and it's texture scale. This is why scaling up textures can reduce lightdata/make shadows blockier. Obviously, the compile tools have to use the same method of calculating lightmap sizes. Faces whose extents are greater than 240x240 will will cause RAD/the engine to try to assign a lightmap size greater than 16x16. Of course, the texture scale is factored in, so this is why faces with small scales are the first to cause problems.

  5. #30
    Still learning wolf-3d's Avatar  
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    Re: [Tutorial] On textures and wpoly (128, 256 or 240, which is the best?)

    Quote Originally Posted by wolf-3d View Post
    Pretty sure the last large grid test I did showed it is still the case. (The height or z-axis of 8192 causes major problems as the engine tends to see over everything in a large open area, unless vis-blocked.)

    From: http://www.slackiller.com/tommy14/rspeeds.htm
    "BSP initially divides your map into 1024x1024x8192 sections."
    @Hezus, I did not even know that they would be drawn, the old GoldSrc max. playable area was +-4,096 from the origin and 4,096 x 2 = 8192
    (So it does not really surprise me, as those "up lines" would have served little purpose, as building a bigger "up map", would have crashed Hammer, the compiler and HL1.)
    With SC5.0+, SC-SDK (Compilers and our increased Hammer grid size), we should probably check if someone got around to expanding the gl_wireframe code to the new limits.

    The "engine tends to see over everything [over 8192] in a large open area" comment was due to R_Speeds and realising the situation boils down to "pretending you have a 8192 high wall" infront of a player (which the SC engine will see over).

    Further Info.
    The VIS Blocks I have been referring to are 3-dimensional. In the past examples I have made them look 2D to simplify the diagrams, but this is not always the case. They normally rise to the ceiling, but can be cut horizontally as well as vertically. Therefore if your walls do not reach the sky, the computer will think it can see everything on the other side (side view):
    Click image for larger version. 

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    Above Quote and Image from the HINT Brush Tutorial (Vis_Blocking) at: http://www.countermap2.com/Tutorials...0b30.html?id=2
    Last edited by wolf-3d; 21-04-2018 at 01:43 PM.
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    Re: [Tutorial] On textures and wpoly (128, 256 or 240, which is the best?)



    I think one thing hasnt been mentioned yet in this thread.
    Adding a 8px border around your 240² texture which will never be used or visable, just to increase the texture size to 256².
    Then in the editor you still scale your 256² texture to 0.534 (128² units brush).

    Giving you the advantage of both, good quality and low wpolys.

    (Note: Of course a 256² texture on 0.5 scale resulting in 4 wpolys still looks better)
    Last edited by _RC; 03-06-2018 at 02:15 AM.

  7. #32
    Super moderator Hezus's Avatar
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    Re: [Tutorial] On textures and wpoly (128, 256 or 240, which is the best?)

    @RC: That's also a nice way to do it.

    The good news is that all these tricks will mo longer be necessary when SC 5.17 is released. The render has been updated so the resizing doesn't occor anymore. That means all textures will stay as sharp as they were intended

    The next step is to increase the face subdivision scale. There have been some tests with higher values but it might still take some time and effort to get this feature in a future release. Until then 240x240 textures offer the best wpoly/quality value (especially since now they're not being resized anymore!).

    If you are currently making textures for future map releases, I'd say you initially create 512x512 or 256x256 textures. It might be possible that this becomes a possiblilty for regular use in the future. Then, for now, just create cheaper 240x240 versions of those textures. Once the render can handle higher dimensions better, you can easily swap them for their high-res counterparts.

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