Thread: How return Software Renderer to Sven Coop 5.0?

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  1. #1
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    Explosive Crate How return Software Renderer to Sven Coop 5.0?

    Pls, dont write bullshit like - "This impossible" or "Dont use Software, use OpenGL".
    I dont care about bugs or unsuporting stuff on this renderer.
    Thnks.

  2. #2
    Still learning wolf-3d's Avatar  
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    Re: How return Software Renderer to Sven Coop 5.0?

    The Software Rendering Code was marked as "experimental by Valve in 1999" (reason it was buggy in the first place).
    It was causing crashes as the Dev's tried to add new features as well as improve OpenGL rendering within our own SC fork.

    Therefore once we had the Engine Code, (and saw all the "todo" and "experimental" comments), a decision was made to removed the Software Rendering Code from our code base (Client & Engine sides) during the clean up for SC5.0

    Not much more we can say about it or suggest a solution. (Console Traces, launch parameters etc. may still exist but they won't work)
    Regards
    Wolf-3D

  3. #3
    Administrator AdamR's Avatar  
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    Re: How return Software Renderer to Sven Coop 5.0?

    Quote Originally Posted by DREEMURR View Post
    Pls, dont write bullshit like - "This impossible"
    Oh ok, I won't write anything then. Even if it is true.
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  4. #4
    Super moderator GeckonCZ's Avatar  
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    Re: How return Software Renderer to Sven Coop 5.0?

    If I recall correctly Sven Co-op is OpenGL-only since version 3.0 (it has some OpenGL specific code in the client library). The software renderer also has some major limitations so it would have hard times rendering "modern" maps. It wouldn't be impossible to bring it back but it would be a lot of work and it's not something we want to do. But what's more important, it wouldn't really solve anything, it would just cause more problems.

    The main reason why we had to remove it is the way it was implemented. The renderer was spread across the entire codebase, and it was preventing us from moving forward. That's why Solokiller removed most of it back in 2016 together with some other old code. I have recently removed few remaining bits of it and made another major cleanup because we want to make the engine modular so it's easier for us to modernize it piece by piece. New - retained mode - renderer will be one of the pieces...

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    Re: How return Software Renderer to Sven Coop 5.0?

    The SW render (And Direct3D) has been removed from the entire HL codebase from the 2013 Steampipe update going forward. The only way to have the SW renderer work is if you retained a legacy install of the HL engine, which is possible in Steam with some ugly hacks and workarounds (I had to do it for a few old HL mods that don't work properly in post Steampipe HL.)

    I really don't see a reason to want the SW renderer, other than for the Quake style water effects, which look rather neat.



    Even in small levels, the SW renderer is very slow and has horrible Z fighting issues.

    If you just like the grainy aspect of the SW renderer, you can type "gl_texturemode GL_NEAREST" to get that.

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    Re: How return Software Renderer to Sven Coop 5.0?

    I played with friends in sven coop 4.8 on Software renderer 5 months. And all just fine. Ugly but works. This is reason why i write - Dont answer: This impossible.
    Just give me instructions how return this renderer to hl engine in sven coop 5.0
    Thnks.

  7. #7
    Donated 15NS$ for Sven's Holiday at the Bahamas Puchi's Avatar  
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    Re: How return Software Renderer to Sven Coop 5.0?

    Quote Originally Posted by DREEMURR View Post
    Just give me instructions how return this renderer to hl engine in sven coop 5.0
    Thnks.
    While the workarounds and hacks work for HL, they most likely do not work with SC because we physically removed the software renderer from the source code. We didn't leave it disabled like Valve. It is gone from the game.
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    Super moderator GeckonCZ's Avatar  
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    Re: How return Software Renderer to Sven Coop 5.0?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGaBiTe View Post
    The SW render (And Direct3D) has been removed from the entire HL codebase from the 2013 Steampipe update going forward.
    That is incorrect, Valve never removed the SW renderer from Half-Life. Probably because it's not as easy as removing D3D. Like I said the SW renderer code is all over the place and it's also used by the dedicated server build of the engine.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGaBiTe View Post
    I really don't see a reason to want the SW renderer, other than for the Quake style water effects, which look rather neat.
    It should be fairly easy to replicate that effect using shaders, once we have the new renderer in place.

    Quote Originally Posted by DREEMURR View Post
    I played with friends in sven coop 4.8 on Software renderer 5 months. And all just fine. Ugly but works.
    Yes you can get 4.8 working in SW mode, and in D3D as well. But not without performance issues and glitches on many maps, and as you said ugly visuals. And that's 4.8 we are talking about here, 5.0 is a different beast, so is the new content made specifically for it. Plus as I mentioned some effects and features would be missing completely. We certainly don't plan shipping half-broken renderer with our game.

    Why do you want SW renderer so badly? Do you have performance issues? What is your hardware?

  9. #9
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    Re: How return Software Renderer to Sven Coop 5.0?

    People want SW because it is faster than OpenGL on some systems, mostly laptops. What I recommend is try using OpenGL on Linux with Wine on the same system. There is better NVIDIA Optimus support there so you get proper performance.

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    Re: How return Software Renderer to Sven Coop 5.0?

    Quote Originally Posted by GeckonCZ View Post
    That is incorrect, Valve never removed the SW renderer from Half-Life. Probably because it's not as easy as removing D3D. Like I said the SW renderer code is all over the place and it's also used by the dedicated server build of the engine.


    It should be fairly easy to replicate that effect using shaders, once we have the new renderer in place.


    Yes you can get 4.8 working in SW mode, and in D3D as well. But not without performance issues and glitches on many maps, and as you said ugly visuals. And that's 4.8 we are talking about here, 5.0 is a different beast, so is the new content made specifically for it. Plus as I mentioned some effects and features would be missing completely. We certainly don't plan shipping half-broken renderer with our game.

    Why do you want SW renderer so badly? Do you have performance issues? What is your hardware?
    I have Asus K750Jb laptop with Nvidia GeForce GT-740M on board. But, this video chip in some reasons dont accept OpenGL. All games who used this Renderer played in 4-5 fps on every video configuration. Other games works fine on middle graphical settings. Yep, i know, that problem of my video chip... But this laptop is not cheap... and i dont want buy another laptop just for sven-coop. That a reason why i ask you how return software renderer to engine... But ok, i achieve detailed answer why this not possible in anyways. Unfortunately i can't play sven-coop 5.0. Thanks for the answers... And sorry for my agressive style. Just this situation is a bit annoying.

  11. #11
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    Re: How return Software Renderer to Sven Coop 5.0?

    Actually that is strange, GT 740M should be able to run the game at a decent framerate. NVIDIA has the best drivers out there when it comes to immediate mode OpenGL. Make sure you are not using "Power saver" profile when playing the game, you should always use "High performace" and you should play with your AC adapter plugged in. If that doesn't help, open the NVIDIA Control Panel go to "Manage 3D Settings" and click on Restore. Then select the "Program Settings" tab and make sure there aren't any app-specific settings defined for Sven Co-op.

    It's also possible that your laptop is using the integrated Intel HD Graphics instead of the dedicated NVIDIA GPU. To check whether this is the case start the game in a dev mode: Right-click on Sven Co-op in your Steam Library, click on Properties, click on "Set Launch Options" and type "-dev -console" (without the quotation marks) to the dialog that pops up. Confirm the changes and launch the game. Developer console should open automatically and you should see lines starting with GL_ identifying your GPU. Something like this:
    Code:
    GL_VENDOR: NVIDIA Corporation
    GL_RENDERER: GeForce GTX 680/PCIe/SSE2
    GL_VERSION: 4.6.0 NVIDIA 388.31
    If it says Intel/Intel HD Graphics instead of NVIDIA Corporation/GeForce, the game is not using your dedicated GPU.

  12. #12
    Administrator JPolito's Avatar  
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    Re: How return Software Renderer to Sven Coop 5.0?

    Quote Originally Posted by GeckonCZ View Post
    It's also possible that your laptop is using the integrated Intel HD Graphics instead of the dedicated NVIDIA GPU.
    I had this problem with my Acer laptop. It kept using Intel Integrated Graphics instead of automatically switching to the NVidia GPU when I opened games, and thus everything ran poorly. You should be able to force the NVidia GPU to be used in the NVidia control panel.

  13. #13
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    Re: How return Software Renderer to Sven Coop 5.0?

    Quote Originally Posted by GeckonCZ View Post
    That is incorrect, Valve never removed the SW renderer from Half-Life. Probably because it's not as easy as removing D3D. Like I said the SW renderer code is all over the place and it's also used by the dedicated server build of the engine.
    They effectively removed it from Steampipe HL. The only way I know to enable it on post Steampipe HL is to replace hw.dll and sw.dll with pre-steampipe versions, which likely would trigger a VAC ban. Though I don't know if this even works anymore, the last time I tried it was right after the change in 2013.

    Quote Originally Posted by DREEMURR View Post
    I have Asus K750Jb laptop with Nvidia GeForce GT-740M on board. But, this video chip in some reasons dont accept OpenGL. All games who used this Renderer played in 4-5 fps on every video configuration. Other games works fine on middle graphical settings. Yep, i know, that problem of my video chip... But this laptop is not cheap... and i dont want buy another laptop just for sven-coop. That a reason why i ask you how return software renderer to engine... But ok, i achieve detailed answer why this not possible in anyways. Unfortunately i can't play sven-coop 5.0. Thanks for the answers... And sorry for my agressive style. Just this situation is a bit annoying.
    The problem is that you have a laptop with dual graphics:

    https://www.asus.com/Laptops/X750JB/specifications/

    You have the IGP on the CPU (Intel HD Graphics 4600) and you have the discrete Geforce GT-740M. Laptop vendors have been doing this for awhile now, but the issue is that it's a proprietary setup that's not officially supported by any of the GPU vendors. You need to use special drivers provided by the vendor themselves for the configuration to work properly. If you independently installed drivers from both Nvidia and Intel, or Windows did this for you, then you're going to have problems.

    Your laptop uses something called ASUS Power4Gear:

    https://www.asus.com/us/support/FAQ/1008310/

    You'll need to play with this to see if you can force the use of the Nvidia GPU with Sven-Coop. Weird setups like this didn't exist back when the HL engine was released, which explains why it doesn't work properly.

    If you can't get it to work, there is a console cvar you can change to get more performance called "r_dynamic 0". This disables dynamic lights, which cause problems on Intel and AMD GPUs, but it also causes the flashlight not to work.

  14. #14
    Super moderator GeckonCZ's Avatar  
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    Re: How return Software Renderer to Sven Coop 5.0?

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGaBiTe View Post
    They effectively removed it from Steampipe HL. The only way I know to enable it on post Steampipe HL is to replace hw.dll and sw.dll with pre-steampipe versions, which likely would trigger a VAC ban. Though I don't know if this even works anymore, the last time I tried it was right after the change in 2013.
    No they didn't remove it at all. Both sw.dll and swds.dll are still present in the latest version (beta and non-beta) and it always was there. You can switch between OpenGL and Software directly from game options, no additional work is required.

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGaBiTe View Post
    The problem is that you have a laptop with dual graphics ...
    Yeah we have already explained that. Let's wait for his answer now...

  15. #15
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    Re: How return Software Renderer to Sven Coop 5.0?

    Nope. Dual graphics is not a problem. Game runs on correct video chip but this dont affect to fps. Game is still incredible slideshow.
    I change the video drivers for both chips. Tried change Nvidia options, and for sven-coop individualy too. I tried to reinstall DirectX, Visual C++ and other stuff, i tried to Reinstall Windows.
    All ways dont give positive result. Video Chip likes say "OpenGL? Nope.".
    I think something wrong with video chip itself... I think i need going with this laptop to Repair center.

    Totally Mystery...

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    Re: How return Software Renderer to Sven Coop 5.0?

    Quote Originally Posted by DREEMURR View Post
    I think something wrong with video chip itself... I think i need going with this laptop to Repair center.
    If other games are working fine, there is nothing wrong with your laptop. The only thing going to a "repair center" will do is cost you money and potentially be ripped off with unnecessary "services" and potential hardware damage / theft.

    I can't tell you how many computers I've received from "repair shops/centers" that were working when they went in and were utterly destroyed, or had hardware/software/file theft when they came out.

    Someone trustworthy here could use Teamviewer to remote into your laptop and try to fix the issue.

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