Thread: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

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  1. #1
    Administrator AdamR's Avatar  
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    Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    Hello everyone,

    We would like to take this opportunity to inform you all that as of our next release (5.18) Sven Co-op will no longer support running on various outdated operating systems. We do not have a release date for 5.18 yet, and to be honest aren't really in a position to consider a date yet, but we'd like to warn you all in advance anyway in case you need to plan any upgrades. We will of course mention this again in the 5.18 release notes, but please treat this as a final reminder.

    Part of the reason for this is Valve's decision to drop Windows XP and Vista support with Steam as of 1st January 2019. Also as we previously announced nearly 3 years ago this would be inevitable as operating system components begin to deprecate and remove older functionality, which is beyond our control.

    Using more up to date operating systems (and their underlying components) also offers us more opportunity to make the most of their functionality and efficiency upgrades, which ultimately ends up in a better product for all of you.

    Windows XP, 2003, Vista, and 2008

    We don't need to tell you how out of date Windows XP and 2003 are. Given the growing number of security holes it has going un-patched it would be very ill-advised to use these operating systems for anything at all.

    Sven Co-op may still work with Windows Vista and 2008 for a while, however any issues that arise specific to this version will not be supported by us. We've not done anything deliberate to stop this working, but as none of our team use these versions we can't test on them.

    As there is a noticeable hardware requirement gap between Windows XP/2003 and Vista (and later) you will almost certainly need to consider this too. This is also out of our control, sorry. The hardware requirements between Windows Vista right the way up to Windows 10 don't have such a wide gap though, so if you're already running Windows Vista there is a likelihood that you can also run any of the newer versions on the same hardware.

    Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008 R2 will still be supported for the foreseeable future, again, until circumstances beyond our control dictate otherwise.

    Linux using GLIBC earlier than 2.24

    All Linux installations will require GLIBC version 2.24 or later. This coincides with an internal infrastructure upgrade from Debian 8 "Jessie" to Debian 9 "Stretch". Debian 9, which we compile our code for Linux on, has not only been stable for nearly 2 years now but can be upgraded to from previous versions easily enough, so this shouldn't be much of an issue. (It can typically be done without issue within the hour on a high speed Internet connection.)

    Those of you running Ubuntu version 16.10 or later will not be impacted. If you're running the previous LTS (16.04) you can likely upgrade to the current LTS (18.04) easily enough as with most Debian based Linux distributions.

    Sorry to disappoint further, but those of you wanting to run SvenDS on RHEL, CentOS, or FreeBSD will still not be able to do so just as you can't now. To be clear on this, as a game development team we have no desire to support enterprise type distributions of Linux. Though they may be great for many applications, games are certainly not their purpose. Our choice down the Debian distribution path correlates with a happy balance between fairly up to date software and stable proven software. The Debian path also matches Valve's preference with Steam, particularly as they use this for their own SteamOS distribution, of which the current version (3.0) is also based on Debian 9.

    If you're not sure which version of GLIBC your Linux installation runs you can find out using `ldd --version` from a terminal, or check this table at Wikipedia.

    Adam "Adambean" Reece
    Sven Co-op team

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  2. #2
    ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ sv boi's Avatar
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    R.I.P XP and vista , you will be missed
    Dont use this



  3. #3
    Administrator AdamR's Avatar  
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    Quote Originally Posted by sv boi View Post
    R.I.P XP and vista , you will be missed
    XP yes
    2003 very yes
    Vista no
    Adam "Adambean" Reece
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  4. #4
    Advanced Leveldesigner SourceSkyBoxer's Avatar
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    Thanks for supporting with Ubuntu 18.04 - I have worked with Ubuntu 18.04 because I am not fan of Windows now cause Windows still rebooted since major update September 2018 - I didn't that Windows Update messed up since my default Desktop. I am still happy with Ubuntu 18.04.
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  5. #5
    Administrator AdamR's Avatar  
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    We haven't tried it on Ubuntu mind. Debian is our primary choice. We did resolve the minor library dependency of which prevented SvenDS starting on Stretch, which in theory should also work on Ubuntu, though I'm not sure if any of our team really use that.
    Adam "Adambean" Reece
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  6. #6
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamR View Post
    there is a likelihood that you can also run any of the newer versions on the same hardware.
    Ha, no, a VI$TA machine's motherboard drivers are unlikely to work with 10. That's way more important than the underlying hardware, which brings us to the 2nd point: graphics drivers. VI$TA-era GPUs are very unlikely to have any kinda 10 support.

    Hell, even 7 on a VI$TA machine is fairly unlikely to work.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamR View Post

    Sorry to disappoint further, but those of you wanting to run SvenDS on RHEL, CentOS, or FreeBSD will still not be able to do so just as you can't now. To be clear on this, as a game development team we have no desire to support enterprise type distributions of Linux. Though they may be great for many applications, games are certainly not their purpose.

    That's still an extremely pathetic excuse, not a reason by any stretch.

    I can understand cuz of ancient packages, but when they're not ancient it becomes an excuse.

    Although it doesn't affect me when I'm in control, not having support for something like COS is a wasted opportunity due to its usage in Servers; if it's not Ubuntu or Debian, it's likely COS.
    Jouni "Rautamiekka" Järvinen
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  7. #7
    Administrator AdamR's Avatar  
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    Quote Originally Posted by rautamiekka View Post
    That's still an extremely pathetic excuse, not a reason by any stretch.
    You're entitled to your opinion, even if it's wrong.

    As we said, we're a hobby game project. Enterprise style operating systems are not our focus. It's more important that our compatibility is more in line with the rest of Steam, which goes down the Debian fork rather than the RHEL fork. Last time I checked you can't use Steam at all on CentOS without the help of manually installing 3rd party repositories and packages.

    Quote Originally Posted by rautamiekka View Post
    Although it doesn't affect me when I'm in control, not having support for something like COS is a wasted opportunity due to its usage in Servers; if it's not Ubuntu or Debian, it's likely COS.
    Yeah they're going to be a few people a bit miffed, though what kind of server renter doesn't offer you a choice of OS these days with the vast amounts of virtualisation available? This is only going to be an issue for such low-end providers, or where SvenDS is being added onto an existing installations doing other application roles.
    Adam "Adambean" Reece
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  8. #8
    Advanced Leveldesigner SourceSkyBoxer's Avatar
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    AdamR, sorry I forget to say- My Ubuntu 18.04 has only glibc greater than 2.24 = It is ok. Please don't forget to install sometimes i386 packages like libcrypt12-dev and libmesa-dev should install like you are working with J.A.C.K. under Linux:

    For my Ubuntu 18.04:
    Code:
    sudo apt update && sudo apt install -fy libcrypt12-dev:i386 libmesa-dev:i386
    Code:
    export PATH=$PATH:.:~/.steam/steamapps/common/Sven\ Co-op
    For svencoop_linux via clickable mode.

    I have experience of Linux. Don't worry!
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  9. #9
    Administrator AdamR's Avatar  
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    Thanks for checking this on Ubuntu SSB.

    We did consider doing 64-bit Linux builds though there will likely be little benefit in that given how good Multiarch is for providing the required 32-bit components. There is still pieces of this left in the engine, though as Valve discontinued 64-bit HLDS some 10 years ago I have no idea how good it is.
    Adam "Adambean" Reece
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  10. #10
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    I wish sven was going in the opposite direction by supporting any hardware/OS released after 1998, but this is your project.
    Love,
    w00tguy

  11. #11
    Administrator AdamR's Avatar  
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    Quote Originally Posted by w00tguy123 View Post
    supporting any hardware/OS released after 1998
    Almost nothing does that.
    Adam "Adambean" Reece
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  12. #12
    Administrator Sniper's Avatar  
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    As new iterations of C++ and compiler technology are released, it's important for us to keep up.
    No one should be running outdated operating systems. This is especially true for computers connected to the internet.

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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    Quote Originally Posted by Sniper View Post
    No one should be running outdated operating systems. This is especially true for computers connected to the internet.
    Distros giving old packages in the name of stability are a problem. Debian and CentOS in particular do that.
    Jouni "Rautamiekka" Järvinen
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  14. #14
    Administrator AdamR's Avatar  
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    Debian is a good balance of new and stable though. If you want really very new indeed you have Ubuntu, but I doubt anything on the RHEL tree provides anything new enough. (E.g. CentOS 7, the most current one, has PHP 5.4, which is really very end of life. There have been 5 notable releases since then.)
    Adam "Adambean" Reece
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    Administrator Sniper's Avatar  
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    Quote Originally Posted by rautamiekka View Post
    Distros giving old packages in the name of stability are a problem. Debian and CentOS in particular do that.
    Linux does a pretty good job with backporting security features to old versions. That's not quite what we're talking about here. Linux, in general, is very easy to keep up to date.

  16. #16
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    And you can work Windows programs under high latest wine version without to install Steam on Wine. Just write own script and execute this - See post!
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    Quote Originally Posted by Sniper View Post
    Linux does a pretty good job with backporting security features to old versions. That's not quite what we're talking about here. Linux, in general, is very easy to keep up to date.
    Security is a completely different subject I didn't touch.
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamR View Post
    Sorry to disappoint further, but those of you wanting to run SvenDS on RHEL, CentOS, or FreeBSD will still not be able to do so just as you can't now.
    What on earth are you talking about? SC5 has ran fine on RHEL/Fedora and OpenSuSE since it was available for Linux. I've always used these distros and SC5 has always worked, until this latest update.

    I abhor developers that build against bleeding edge packages for absolutely no reason and then say that incompatibility is our problem because they're too lazy to statically link their libraries in the application binary.

    The fix for this stupidity is easy and only takes a few GCC flags to include all of the dependencies in the binary so it will work on any platform. The only downside is that the binary is larger, but in an age of multi-terabyte hard drives, the minuscule size increase is irrelevant.

  19. #19
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGaBiTe View Post
    The fix for this stupidity is easy and only takes a few GCC flags to include all of the dependencies in the binary so it will work on any platform.
    Statically linking with LGPL code would also require open-sourcing the game and engine, or at least releasing the object files.

    Open-sourcing the engine isn't a legal option, but I don't think there's any issue with releasing object files besides it being a hassle.
    Love,
    w00tguy

  20. #20
    Advanced Leveldesigner SourceSkyBoxer's Avatar
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    Hello everyone why do you not use AppImage if other Linux and FreeBSD have problems with correct glibc version. Make sure before svencoop executable with important so files like any library dynamic paths ( LD_LIBRARY_PATH ) and installed libraries like crypto, libvorbis etc would like to pack to AppImage and it works without any problems.
    Example Svencoop.AppImage -w 800 -h 600 -windowed +set_cheats 255v
    It is packed shell script with found so files and executable. I hope they don't hesitate about AppImage executable.
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  21. #21
    Administrator AdamR's Avatar  
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    Quote Originally Posted by GiGaBiTe View Post
    What on earth are you talking about? SC5 has ran fine on RHEL/Fedora and OpenSuSE since it was available for Linux. I've always used these distros and SC5 has always worked, until this latest update.

    I abhor developers that build against bleeding edge packages for absolutely no reason and then say that incompatibility is our problem because they're too lazy to statically link their libraries in the application binary.

    The fix for this stupidity is easy and only takes a few GCC flags to include all of the dependencies in the binary so it will work on any platform. The only downside is that the binary is larger, but in an age of multi-terabyte hard drives, the minuscule size increase is irrelevant.
    Debian has always been our base of choice, still is, and likely will be for the foreseeable future. We can't make statically linked libraries because, as w00tguy123 has correctly guessed, would require us to release both game library and engine source code to be license compatible. That is not an option.

    Also last time I checked Debian has never been bleeding edge. RHEL (and derivatives) are just much further behind because they focus on long-term service (10+ years), more suited for enterprise applications, not gaming.

    Quote Originally Posted by SourceSkyBoxer View Post
    Hello everyone why do you not use AppImage if other Linux and FreeBSD have problems with correct glibc version. Make sure before svencoop executable with important so files like any library dynamic paths ( LD_LIBRARY_PATH ) and installed libraries like crypto, libvorbis etc would like to pack to AppImage and it works without any problems.
    Example Svencoop.AppImage -w 800 -h 600 -windowed +set_cheats 255v
    It is packed shell script with found so files and executable. I hope they don't hesitate about AppImage executable.
    I have no idea what AppImage is. However it wasn't difficult to find reasons why this would be a bad idea: https://github.com/ValveSoftware/ste...ment-303967905
    Particularly this one:
    Because Steam games depends on Steam as DRM-service.
    Adam "Adambean" Reece
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  22. #22
    Advanced Leveldesigner SourceSkyBoxer's Avatar
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    @AdamR, Why does Github hide me? I am very disappointed to Github. Whatever you say. I try out with steamapi game in AppImage and I try out if it works.

    You can read AppImage website.
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  23. #23
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    Re: Dropping support for Windows XP/2003, Windows Vista/2008, and Linux GLIBC <2.24

    Quote Originally Posted by w00tguy123 View Post
    Statically linking with LGPL code would also require open-sourcing the game and engine, or at least releasing the object files.
    You aren't explicitly required to release the source to the proprietary application if you provide the object files so they can be independently linked from the LGPL code.

    Sven Coop binaries could be statically linked without releasing any source code.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamR View Post
    Debian has always been our base of choice, still is, and likely will be for the foreseeable future. We can't make statically linked libraries because, as w00tguy123 has correctly guessed, would require us to release both game library and engine source code to be license compatible. That is not an option.
    Either the source code OR compiled object files are required, not both. With the latter, no source code is ever released.

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamR View Post
    Also last time I checked Debian has never been bleeding edge. RHEL (and derivatives) are just much further behind because they focus on long-term service (10+ years), more suited for enterprise applications, not gaming.
    While RHEL has 7-10 year support cycles, it doesn't mean its hideously out of date. Each RHEL release receives incremental version updates from the much more rigorously released Fedora. It eventually gets what Fedora has, it just takes awhile.

    I've discovered why the latest SC5 release stopped working, it's not because of GLibC, it's because a new version of libopenssl (1.1 vs 1.0) was built against. OpenSuSE 43.3 and 15, as well as Fedora 28 work again if this dependency is resolved.

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